Episode 68: The Career Path of a Forensic Accountant with Hayden Lewellen, CPA, CFE
A common question for forensic accounting experts is, “How do I break into this industry and become a forensic accountant?” In this week’s episode, Leah interviews Hayden Lewellen, a forensic accountant who started this career path with an FBI internship and a public accounting internship. Learn more about his journey and advice to others seeking guidance to join this fascinating career.
Hayden Lewellen is a Certified Public Accountant and a Certified Fraud Examiner. After graduating with his BSBA in Accounting in May of 2020 he successfully received his MBA and his CPA license within a year and, after a nine-month internship that was extended due to the ongoing pandemic, he began working full-time for HoganTaylor LLP as a Forensic, Valuation, Litigation Support Staff in October of 2020.
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Transcript
Leah Wietholter:
Hi, I'm Leah Wietholter, and this is the Investigation Game Podcast.
Leah Wietholter:
Okay. So we have a lot of listeners who are either in college pursuing an accounting degree and sometimes even forensic accounting degrees. And then we also have listeners who are looking for a career change, maybe a career change into forensic accounting. So today, I'd like to talk about your career path and lessons that you've learned along the way. And first of all, the thing that stood out to me whenever we connected on LinkedIn, I mean, not only am I familiar with your firm, because your firm is based here in Tulsa, also, you were an honors intern with the FBI and so was I. And I get a lot of questions about how this program works, but I'm old now, so I don't know how these things work. So when I saw you had this background, I was like, okay, we've got to have him on the podcast so he can educate our listeners and help our listeners. So, first of all, what led you to pursue this internship opportunity?
Hayden:
So really it was, I guess, two parts. I mean, growing up, I always had an interest in law enforcement, but I kind of lost it as I got towards college and I was looking for what I wanted to do. I started with finance and then tacked on accounting and then later dropped finance. But as I was exploring what to do with an accounting degree, most of the typical things didn't sound super interesting. And then I stumbled across forensic accounting. And so I did a lot of research on it. I actually spoke with different recruiters from firms as a college student, just kind of like, "Hey, how do I get started?", and stuff like that. And just a lot of sources online pointed towards FBI hires forensic accountants. So I was like, wow, that seems like the place to be for the exciting stuff. So as I was poking around on that, I stumbled across their internship and waited around for the application to open up.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. So I want to know about this process because even just when we were chatting before we started recording, I learned there's a lot of differences since 2006 when I was an honors intern. So whenever I'm asked about this, I just refer people to fbi.gov. You were in this program in 2019, so how did this program work when you were there and what was that application process like?
Hayden:
FBIjobs.gov has all the information out there. You actually apply the September before the summer that the internship is. So I applied in September of 2018 for summer of 2019. It's only open for a certain period of time, so you have to make sure that you're watching for it to open up and they have it on the website. And so just keeping an eye out for that and making sure that you're meeting the minimal qualifications. Really, they're looking for all backgrounds for the internship and for employees in general, so don't worry too much about what your major is. It's really just, what do I want to do long term? And they also have automatic disqualifiers, just make sure that you don't fall into any of those categories.
Leah Wietholter:
Do you remember what any of those were?
Hayden:
Most of them are drug use related, some arrest history, overall background check. One thing that I don't think people would realize is that even as an intern, you're getting a full top secret security clearance, so they're not going to shortcut the process for you. It's a long process. And I always tell people, the key thing is to be patient. I believe that I actually got my final confirmation as I was driving to the field office, as I was moving out there. So it was like down to the wire on timing and you just have to be patient with it and see it through.
Leah Wietholter:
Do they still do a polygraph?
Hayden:
They still do a polygraph. You still have to pass polygraphs, still have to get fingerprinted, all that stuff.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. I just remember my polygraph interview and I attended Oral Roberts university, so like a really strict honor code and stuff. And so I remember they were asking me questions during ... There is a lot of background check stuff, but they were asking me about marijuana use or alcohol use or whatever. And I said, and at that point in my life, I had never had a taste alcohol except for like at the Episcopal church when I went with my boyfriend a couple times, that was the only exposure I'd ever had and well, maybe not exposure, but like I just had never drank. And he was like, there is no way. And I think this was on the polygraph because I remember him looking at it. And he's like, there is no way. And finally, I just told him, because he just kept harping on. There is no way that you have never had alcohol. And I just said, I have wanted to work for the FBI since I was in ninth grade. So no, I would've been like this major rule follower my entire life even through college, but he just couldn't believe that was my answer. Surely the polygraph was going to show I was lying.
Hayden:
Yeah. And it's tough because I kind of had a similar story. I was like, no, I've never tried any of these drugs. And they're like, you've never even experimented like once, several ... I'm like, no, I've never been interested. I've always kept it clean, but I will say that you have a personal security interview early on in the process where they go over everything that you submitted and they do kind of probe you a little bit and ask about those things and make sure that you're ready for that polygraph and you're telling the truth. And they're not looking for people that have never done anything wrong. Admit to what you have done so that it doesn't come out that you lied and just move forward with it. They're not looking for someone who's never had a parking ticket. There is some leeway.
Leah Wietholter:
Oh yeah, for sure. I remember there was this one agent who would say all the time, if you ever mess up, just admit it, but if you lie about it, you're out. This was even after I was at the Bureau. He's like, if you lie about it, you're gone.
Hayden:
That's how it is, got to be candid. And talking about the background process, I actually, it's funny because they have the investigators go out and talk to your neighbors and your employers and stuff like that. So I worked through college part-time and so I remember showing up to work and there was a truck out front that I didn't recognize and I walk inside and my coworkers were all like, what'd you do? The FBI's in there and they're talking to the manager. And same thing, people were asking about it because he went to, I went to Arkansas Tech University, so he was up there talking to my professors and just asking about my grades and how I am in class, things like that.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. I had no idea they were going to do that, so I didn't tell anyone. I think they talked to people I hadn't even listed on my application or whatever. And so I just had all these people, I remember texting me, the FBI just interviewed me today. Thanks a lot.
Hayden:
Yeah, no. I did have to identify some people. They reached out to them. But then I think that later on, they kind of just like on the spot was like, Hey, who else can we talk to that you haven't thought about?
Leah Wietholter:
So yeah. It is intense. But like you said, they're still like leeway and stuff. Just be honest. That's what they're looking for. Which, as an employer, I really just need people to be honest with me too. It's fair, especially for the type of work they were doing. Okay. So when I was an honors intern, we were either assigned to DC headquarters, DC field office, Quantico, or Criminal Justice Information Systems in West Virginia. But when you were in the program, they sent you to field offices. So tell us a little about that.
Hayden:
Yeah. So if you go on there, they actually have you rank your top six choices. A lot of people want to go to headquarters or they want to stay local. I had this bright idea that I really wanted to show that I was ambitious and was willing to relocate and all this stuff. So I ranked Portland first on my list and then I think Little Rock, second or third down in there. And so I actually went to Portland for my internship, the field office. And again, they do not cover reimbursements or travel expenses or housing. So think through those choices. That was all on me moving out to Portland for a summer.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. The moving was on you. Is it still paid?
Hayden:
It is still paid.
Leah Wietholter:
You still get paid once you got there.
Hayden:
Right. They just don't pay-
Leah Wietholter:
Getting there.
Hayden:
They don't pay for the housing while you're there either.
Leah Wietholter:
Right? Yeah. You got to pay that out of what they're paying you.
Hayden:
Correct.
Leah Wietholter:
Yep. Yep. I remember that. First of all, why did you choose Portland?
Hayden:
I wish I had some great reason. I just kind wanted to go explore Portland. And just thought it sounded like a cool place to go. And it was great. I loved it.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. That's awesome. I don't think there's any better weather than in Portland.
Hayden:
It was perfect.
Leah Wietholter:
So nice. Especially in the summer. Oh my gosh. And then when you got there, how did they choose where you were assigned or were you in a special section or unit?
Hayden:
Yeah. So I don't know how they determine it. I don't know if they look at your major and line you up, but I so happened to be assigned to the white collar crime squad.
Leah Wietholter:
Oh, awesome.
Hayden:
So I got to work hand in hand with the forensic accountants. I was assigned a mentor who was amazing. I won't name his name because he's still with them, but he really put a lot of faith and trust in me to work on active cases and help move them along and really just took me under his wing, and it was a great time.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. I always say that the internship was like the best 10 weeks. And then later two years of my life. It was just so much fun. So when you were an intern on the white collar squad, what were the types of tasks that you were doing?
Hayden:
Again, I don't know if it was because I had an accounting background or just because we hit it off well and he trusted me. It took me a couple of weeks, I guess, to kind of build that up with him. But it so happened that Portland was looking for a forensic accountant. So they kind of had some more work to do. And so I kind of got to fill that role for the summer. I was working investigations, I was doing some analysis. I was doing the same things that they were doing as far as don't want to get too specific, obviously, because again-
Leah Wietholter:
Did you schedule bank statements and do analysis?
Hayden:
Scheduling bank statements, doing the analysis. I actually helped to identify a money laundering scheme, tracing the funds through several accounts. And then it was actually liquidated off to cryptocurrency. I got to do some crypto tracing. Got to do it all.
Leah Wietholter:
That's awesome.
Hayden:
I went to Attorney General's office for some briefings.
Leah Wietholter:
Did they take you on any search warrants?
Hayden:
So I did get to go on one search.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. Was it white collar related?
Hayden:
No, it wasn't. I just got to tag along on another squad. And your role on those searches are very limited because they don't want you doing too much and you have to testify for it. They're pretty limited in what you can do, but I got to go and experience it, so that was good.
Leah Wietholter:
That's good. Did they still do any, when I was there, they did classes for defensive tactics or I don't know, any of the training stuff, because they were trying to expose us in hopes that we'd become agents. So did they do any of that for you?
Hayden:
No. They didn't do any defensive tactics. We got to do like a simulation, one of the gun simulations, one of their training things. So that was a lot of fun.
Leah Wietholter:
And then were there other interns in Portland as well?
Hayden:
Yes. Ah, we actually had a big group. Can't remember how many, but I think there was like nine or 10 of us, which they said it was a pretty good size group. So there were two of us on the white collar squad.
Leah Wietholter:
So did you go in between your junior and senior year of college?
Hayden:
I did.
Leah Wietholter:
Yes. And how long was your internship?
Hayden:
It was 10 weeks. And then they, assuming you do well through your 10 weeks, you can extend it. So if you go in as like a freshman or sophomore, they'll actually offer to extend your internship onto next summer or something like that sometimes. And so I had a limited internship throughout the school year to maintain my clearance because you have to meet so many hours in the office to keep that up. So I had a limited internship extended through June of 2020.
Leah Wietholter:
Okay. And how did you do that internship being in Arkansas?
Hayden:
They transferred me to Little Rock in their systems. Apparently it would've been a lot easier too if I had wanted to switch to Little Rock initially, but I don't regret going to Portland. I got along great with the Little Rock team as well, but I think there was just something about the overall Portland experience that was really valuable.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So you did your internship and then what did you do after you graduated college?
Hayden:
So I was one of the fortunate, lucky ones to be right during COVID.
Leah Wietholter:
Oh, no.
Hayden:
I know. So I was in my last semester, I was again doing this limited internship with the Bureau and I'd just started interning with Hogan Taylor, in their advisory department working with the forensic evaluation group here. So I was just being a little support there, but March hit and COVID hit and I got sent home from both internships. Both kept me on, but just with different roles, if you will. I guess I kind of made a good enough impression with the Hogan Taylor. They had a pretty limited internship, which only again, like another 10 weeks or so, but they extended it for me. They said, "Hey, you can stay on until you graduate, if you want." And so I stayed on until I graduated and then as graduation was approaching, we were kind of like, "Hey, is there going to be a full-time offer?" And they were like, "Well, we really want to, but COVID, and so let's just keep extending your internship for now and we'll kind of keep going that way." So I ended up as an intern for nine months for Hogan Taylor.
Leah Wietholter:
That's awesome, but also super weird. So I bet that was a really strange situation in your life.
Hayden:
It was weird.
Leah Wietholter:
That would be really strange. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Leah Wietholter:
Welcome back to my conversation with Hayden. So when in this process did you start sitting for licenses and credentials?
Hayden:
I graduated in May and I'm the kind of person that I don't like to drag things out. I don't like to take the easy road. I want to do it all at once. And so I graduated in May and decided I wanted to have my CPA license within a year. Well, I said I wanted to be licensed. I didn't say I wanted to pass the exams within a year. So that meant I needed the additional credits because I didn't graduate with my bachelors within an hour. So I needed to go get a master's and that means I needed to pass all four exams. And I also started working full time in October. So I took an accelerated MBA course through LSU Shreveport online, started taking exams. I took my first one in August of 2020, had my wedding in August as well.
Leah Wietholter:
Oh my gosh.
Hayden:
And then I took my last CPA exam in March of 21. And so by that time, when I found out I had passed, I had completed enough of my MBA program to have the credits needed and I had been working, so I met all the requirements to get licensed in April of 21.
Leah Wietholter:
Wow. That's awesome.
Hayden:
And then graduated from LSU Shreveport in May.
Leah Wietholter:
That's awesome. Way to just knock that out.
Hayden:
Yeah. And then I was like, let's go ahead and get certified fraud examiner while we're at it so I tacked that on at the end of last year.
Leah Wietholter:
Way to knock that out while you still had all the studying momentum and stuff.
Hayden:
Yeah. It was actually kind of funny. I actually finished it while I was on paternity leave.
Leah Wietholter:
Oh my gosh.
Hayden:
So.
Leah Wietholter:
Oh my gosh, that is just too much, Hayden. That's a lot.
Hayden:
And I don't recommend it for the majority of people. I've had people reach out and ask me, "Hey, how'd you do this? Would you recommend it?" And for most people, I don't recommend it. For me, there was no other option. That was the only valid way. That was how I saw my path going. And so if that's your mindset, then go for it. But if you're questioning if it's for you, then you should probably avoid doing it that way.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah, for sure. And then NASPA started doing continual testing or ASCPA, whoever decides that. ASCPA started doing continual testing. So I think that made that a little more doable to try to turn them out fast. Because I did, I passed CPA exam last year and I started in like March of 21 and I finished by September of 21. So it's horrible, but at least with continual testing, you can just study, knock it out. If you don't pass, take it again real quick.
Hayden:
I always tell people, plan your testing around the score release.
Leah Wietholter:
Yes.
Hayden:
Because the worst part is waiting a month.
Leah Wietholter:
Yes.
Hayden:
To figure out if you passed.
Leah Wietholter:
I did the exact same thing. So yes, I endorse that strategy as well. Okay. So when you entered public accounting, you were working with the forensic valuation group at Hogan Taylor. So what, and I'm just going to call it litigation support. But first of all, what does Hogan Taylor do in the litigation support forensic valuation area? What are the types of services over there?
Hayden:
We pretty much do it all. I would say to be generous with it, we have everything from partnership disputes. We get quite a few of those. General breach of contract cases. So we're looking into really whatever allegations have been laid out. It could be fraud, could be just misappropriation, could just be any kind of contract violation. We do get some divorce work for both the forensic and valuation side of things. And then obviously, again, just general litigation support for attorneys that sometimes they just need someone to be able to call when they have something going on in their case and they just need someone to look at it deeper. And then with the valuation side of things, we do a lot of estate and gift tax valuations. We'll do them for partnership buyouts, partnership disputes, and things like that.
Leah Wietholter:
Whenever you started working with this group, did you see some areas where it was like working with the FBI and forensic accountants there, was either different or the same or similar? How did you feel that experience helped you, compliment it? Or was it like, whoa, I've got to look at this from a different perspective or just what were your thoughts on that, making that switch?
Hayden:
Honestly, it went with all of that. First of all, when you walk in there's snacks sitting out.
Leah Wietholter:
That is a change. Yep.
Hayden:
You don't get that at the FBI. No one's buying your coffee. You don't have snacks laying out. So even from the get go, you're getting lunches and stuff on the corporate side that, each has its perks, I guess.
Leah Wietholter:
Right. It's so funny. That was one of the biggest things I noticed going to public accounting was like this whole closet that was full of soda. And I was like, what? And we didn't have to pay, have a can for coffee fund. That was so mind blowing. So that's hilarious. That was one of my first-
Hayden:
And then when it comes to the work, it's a different kind of workload usually. One is the criminal side of things and when is the civil, and it's a different way to investigate too, because we're often constrained in public accounting to our budget. Sometimes the client wants to squeeze as much as possible out of $7,000 and you're like, well, we need to talk about this. We're not going to get too far with that, so we're going to have to kind of make the best use of our time. And so I enjoy getting really down to the details of things. And so yeah, it's kind of a balance there that you have to weigh.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. That you didn't have to at the Bureau.
Hayden:
Yeah. You spend whatever time you need to spend and look at every transaction that you want.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. That's kind of hard to like turn that off at first, I think. What do you think is a reasonable expectation of someone's workday if they're wanting to work in public accounting in litigation support, forensic accounting? What are some reasonable expectations or things that maybe they would want to consider? Because we talk about this at our office too, that sometimes there's just this, oh, it would be cool to be a forensic accountant. And so this idea versus this is what it really looks like. What have you noticed?
Hayden:
Yeah, so I would say obviously it does depend on the firm. So make sure that you're thinking about what kind of work you want to do and what you want your work life to look like. But I would say to make sure that you're comfortable with messy data. We don't get a complete picture. We have messy incomplete data, so be comfortable cleaning that and getting it into format compatible with analyzing it. So sometimes it's manual data entry, learning software, as you know. Through the discovery process, we'll just receive huge data dumps of hundreds or thousands of pages worth of documents. And so, you have to be ready to look at all of those files and categorize them. What's needed? What's not needed? How do we analyze this? You really got to be able to get into the weeds and not get lost.
Leah Wietholter:
Because of that budget constraint too.
Hayden:
Correct.
Leah Wietholter:
Right. How are you going to create the most bang for somebody's buck, but then there's all this mess too, and ferreting through that.
Hayden:
It's a communication thing too, with the client. I'm working some cases right now and the client will just keep sending me stuff and I'm like, okay, let's talk about this. What are you really wanting here, because I can spend another 10, 15 hours going through all this stuff and you may not get anything from this. So let's make sure that we're getting you what you want. And it's a communication thing as well, just making sure that you're comfortable having those talks with clients.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. Which is a big difference from working at the Bureau because we didn't have to talk to, there wasn't this-
Hayden:
And as intern, I definitely didn't talk to.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. But even as a forensic accountant, unless they like do some interviews with the agents or whatever. You're not having to have those kind of conversations. So yeah, I get that. So what education or experience would you recommend to either someone who's going to be graduating soon or if they maybe just want to make a career change and get into forensic accounting and litigation support.
Hayden:
This one's a little tough for me to answer because I was fortunate to land a role right out of college. And I owe a huge portion of that to the partner that leads our group, Clay, Clint Glasgow. He saw a lot of potential in me early on and just kind of put a lot of trust and faith in me to go into this role. It's a lot more responsibility than a typical staff position, I would say. We don't have prior year work papers usually to refer back to, and I would say, experience wise, obviously, you need to get your degree in accounting most likely. A lot of forensic accountants aren't CPAs, but attorneys are going to just look at your credentials and what you're qualified for. And the CPA is an easy way to just check off a box for them to say, okay, well they're a CPA so they have these certain standards that they have to adhere to.
Hayden:
So I would say, go for your CPA license. And so whether you get your master's or you just take enough undergrad credits, either way. And I would say that if you're working for a public firm right now, if you're truly interested in forensic accounting, then make sure you're communicating that with the people you're working with and letting them know. If they have a forensics group, make sure that they're aware that you have that interest because there are times when we need to go pull someone from another group and say, "Hey, can you help us out on this?" And it would be helpful if we know that someone already has an interest, go ahead and kind of let them test the waters. And then if we end up with an opening, we already know that this person works well with us, they have an interest in it and things like that. So I would just make sure that you're communicating that with the right people.
Leah Wietholter:
I really love that suggestion because one of my team and I were talking about how there were some people in previous work experiences that apparently really wanted to do this work, but they'd never told anyone. And it's like, oh man, you got to tell people so they know. Three months into my job in public accounting and I was working tax and I remember they asked me, what do you want to do here? Whatever. And I said, I think forensic accounting could be cool to do. Here's how I think that you could generate revenue from doing this. And they were like, okay. So then the next case that came in, instead of referring it out, they were like, "Hey Leah, you want to take a stab at this?" So yeah, definitely communicating that.
Hayden:
And I would say, you know, like you just said, make sure that you're clear, not just that it's something that you may kind of be interested in, but that it's something that you want to do because otherwise, that does matter how you present your interest. And then again, if you're in college right now, look for those opportunities. There are a lot of firms that have internship opportunities in forensics that people don't even know about. And I was determined go straight into a role in forensics. As a senior, I knew that's what I wanted to do, so I wasn't going to settle for other positions if I didn't have to. So I really had to seek that out.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. And I would also add, as an employer, I had someone who asked me, I don't typically hire forensic accounting interns anymore. I used to, but I had someone who was really insistent about it and made just this amazing case for why I should hire them as a forensic accountant. And I said, okay, great. Here's our forensic accounting manager's card, send her your resume and they never sent her their resume. So when you have an opportunity like that, send someone your resume. And if you don't have a resume, make one. Come on, there's templates everywhere online. But just that little bit of follow through. This person would've had an in ... and I don't give forensic accounting internships. Marketing internships, but not forensic accounting internships. So anyway, just that little extra. It's real simple, but it's very important because, as an employer, I need to know that you're serious about this. So I need you, or whoever the student is, to take that first step to show me that they're serious because I'm not going to seek you out. I'm too busy. My forensic accounting manager's too busy. We are not going to seek out people. You have to be specific.
Hayden:
But you make a great point. That's how it is. There are all kinds of people that say that, oh, they want to do something. And then they just don't put in the small amount of effort that it would take to actually do that. Because how I actually found out about Hogan Taylor was a connection within the Bureau. "Oh hey, you're graduating soon. Here is a firm." And it was just, here's the recruiter's contact information. So I emailed the recruiter and was like, "Hey, I want to work in your forensics group." And so they had an internship in the advisory group and that's how I got in. That follow up through matters.
Leah Wietholter:
It does. It says a lot. And makes the employer feel confident about taking a chance on this person, especially even in the situation, if they don't have an FBI internship like you did or something. So anyway. Well, Hayden, thanks so much for taking time to talk with me today. And if any of our listeners would like to connect with you or ask you more questions, hopefully that's okay. What's the best way to do so?
Hayden:
I would say the best way is probably just LinkedIn. I'm checking that all the time, so just reach out to me on LinkedIn and we can chat.
Leah Wietholter:
Yes. It's a good place. That's where I, "met" you, I guess was on LinkedIn too. So that's awesome. All right. Well, we'll make sure to include your LinkedIn profile link in the show notes. So thank you again.
Hayden:
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.
Leah Wietholter:
Thank you for listening to the Investigation Game Podcast. For more information on any of the topics brought up on this show, visit workmanforensics.com. If you enjoyed our show, please be sure to subscribe and leave a review. You can also connect with us on any social media platform by searching Workman Forensics. If you want to learn more about using data and forensic accounting engagements and fraud investigations, make sure to check out my book, Data Sleuth, available on Amazon or anywhere else you like to buy your books.