Episode 58: The Struggles with Bitcoin Fraud with D. M.

SHOW NOTES

In this week's episode, D. M. talks with us about the different types of bitcoin fraud, how people are being scammed, and why it is so difficult to control.

He picked up technology from a young age which eventually led to a low-level job in the IT retail sector and ending his career in the corporate world as a Senior Network Administrator. Looking for new challenges and a paradigm shift David moved into the Cybersecurity field putting all his years of experience to use as a consultant undertaking Penetration Testing, DFIR, training at a private college, and specializing in OSINT.

Over the years he has taken on a wide array of cases ranging from internet sub-cultures to fraud to missing persons as well as discovering flaws in a mobile carrier and other security research.

We are taking a mid-season break after this episode, we hope you all have a wonderful fall and will be back after October 15th.

Connect with Workman Forensics
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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Intro (00:00):

Welcome to the investigation game podcast brought to you by Workman forensics.

Leah (00:06):

Welcome to the investigation game podcast. I'm Leah Whietholter, CEO of Workman forensics, in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Joining me today is David Mills, obviously not the late writer producer of NYPD blue, but rather the pseudonym for our guest today. David picked up technology from a young age, which eventually led to a low-level job in the it retail sector and resulted in a career in the corporate world as a senior network administrator, looking for new challenges and a paradigm shift. David moved into the cybersecurity field, putting all of his years of experience to use as a consultant undertaking authorized simulated cyber attacks on computer systems, known as penetration testing, digital forensic, and incident response. DFI our training at a private college and specializing in open source intelligence. Over the years, he's taken on a wide array of cases, ranging from internet subcultures to fraud and missing persons, as well as discovering flaws in mobile carrier and other security research. Thank you for joining me today, David.

D.M. (01:06):

Thanks for having me. Yeah, I've been in since your podcast for a while. Uh, I've learned quite a lot, so I'm glad to, uh, get to hop on you're in shape. Hopefully I can share some of my experience with the listeners.

Leah (01:16):

Yeah. I'm excited to have you on, uh, you have a lot of experience with a lot of different cyber and digital for, uh, investigations. So today I'd like to focus on Bitcoin. We haven't really talked much about that, but obviously it's a popular topic right now. Um, but I'd like to focus on Bitcoin from several different perspectives. So we're going to start with, what are some common Bitcoin scams that you've been seeing lately and how do those work?

D.M. (01:42):

Some of them are part and parcel of, uh, MLMs, multilevel, uh, marketing schemes, uh, your, your, your previous podcast. I think, uh, uh, Stacy Cronin, uh, spoke, spoke about that a bit. Um, and some of them were allowing that some of them are just straight up Ponzi schemes. What I noticed was a little while ago, obviously we're all in locked down because of COVID and I noticed, wow, I sort of, I figured that was so was so much time on their hands. People would get up to no good. Uh, folks are desperate folks weren't working money with them. Jobs are scarce and so forth and sort of globally. Um, so something that I didn't notice that these, these Bitcoins schemes, it definitely amplified them. You see the same thing if you're dealing with a blackout hacker, for example, uh, you know, hacking is not a five minute plug on a tour essentially, and it gets done, uh, you know, it's preparation, it's timing it's, um, you know, it, it has to be well orchestrated and it does require a lot of time trying to break into things and doing recon, uh, trying to decrypt passwords and so forth.

D.M. (02:51):

So I started to notice more and more of them and take a bit of an interest in them up. And to be honest, I've always kind of avoided Bitcoin. Uh, it kind of irks me a little bit because, you know, it's kind of like how social media misappropriate, the internet and internet was a far different place when I got on it, you know, so many years ago and that sort of, um, sort of held captive by, by, by social media. So whenever something, now that's new to the general public comes out. I kind of get a bit annoyed and uh, you know, folks, tell me, have you heard of this Bitcoin thing? It's amazing. I'm like, yeah, I knew about long time ago. Um, it's, it's an awesome technology for sure. Uh, it's definitely in this sort of niche in it from the criminal aspect, it's absolutely abused.

D.M. (03:39):

It can be used for so many awesome things. Um, but, but the, the schemes that we see now, obviously it's, it's, it's not, uh, and you can, you can say the same for everything. It doesn't necessarily make Bitcoin bad as a technology. It's very viable. Uh, uh, it's the same as a peer to peer file sharing. You don't necessarily have to use it to download copyrighted material. You know, let's say if you were an independent filmmaker, you could make form and distribute through peer to peer. So it's a very good, you know, uh, you could save on the hosting fees and all that stuff. But, um, so some that I've seen are just straight up on six. There's no way around it. Um, a lot of them might be factored into sort of this MLM. Uh, they, they create this, this hap, um, uh, I think whatever the millennials call it, FOMO, fear of missing out there.

D.M. (04:30):

They create this, uh, sort of framework, uh, the sense of urgency, um, to sort of pressure one into making a decision. Um, and they usually sort of, the head of the snake is usually the somewhat charismatic character. Um, you'll see, color psychology comes into play. Uh, there'll be wearing suits for, for whatever reason, your see sort of something punctuated with gold. Uh, but they seem to wear like blue suits. Um, obviously, you know, they're, they, um, snake oil salesman have the highest degree, uh, but they're very charismatic, uh, that they talk a big game. They will say something like, you know, they'll, they'll, uh, drop something like, um, you know, Bitcoin's decoupling and, you know, I've never heard of that before in my life. I'm not a financial person. So, but if you say that to someone who's kind of interested in this, heard a little bit about Bitcoin, you, you know, straightaway running the assumption that this person knows what they're talking about, because they know more on the subject of myself, uh, enhance that kind of starts the slippery slope.

D.M. (05:40):

And in actual fact, uh, I'd say 99% of these people, their technical proficiency is non-existent. They have no idea what's actually going on. Um, they're, they're very opportunistic as well. Uh, I lecture my part-time while I'm a part-time lecturer and something that I've noticed that I always, you know, uh, uh, I, I teach some of the modules on social engineering and I say to the folks in the classroom, it's like, you just assume that I know what I'm talking about because I'm standing at the front of the classroom. Why aren't you questioning me? So, um, yeah, folks get roped in, uh, it's, it's basically, it's essentially an MLM with, uh, a Bitcoin component and fused into it. So you seeing family members roped in you seeing next door neighbors, I've got this business opportunity business opportunity. And I think in, in Stacy's, uh, podcast, she's mentioned it, you know, quite Stoney said that it's not a business.

D.M. (06:45):

I can agree with us. See these things echoed in this, uh, environment. It's, it's not a business. These are not businessmen at all. Uh, actually I was reading a, an affidavit the other day. It was referring to someone involved in one of these and they said, you know, Mr X was the businessman. And I know it was like, no, he's not, he's actually a salesman. And he's also got a class action lawsuit coming up against them. Uh, and who knows who else is going to Sue him because he uses sort of a ma was an apex predator. Uh, he goes just sending different Bitcoin schemes all over, all over the place. And then of course, you know, they can kind of anticipate when they're going to implode as they all do. Um, the, the interesting one about the Bitcoin environments is the, how creative they get with the, uh, the implosion, uh, you know, alien abduction, people disappear, um, you know, uh, some stick-up scarf dropped him through the roof and kidnapped him in the night. Um, somebody else stole the money. Uh, we, we were hacked as well. Um, but of course, you know, there's no evidence, uh, it's all unfounded. And, you know, they're writing this on social media while they're sitting on the beach with, you know, an 87 year old pensioners life savings.

Leah (08:04):

So in these Ponzi schemes, are they using Bitcoin as the investment or are they selling something else and then using Bitcoin as payment, or are they trying to rope people into investing in Bitcoin?

D.M. (08:21):

All of the above, they all fundamentally the same, but they differ ever so slightly. Some, you know, this there's one, uh, first one comes to mind. They were, uh, under the pretense of trading. We on the vesture midpoint for you. Um, they also were advertising as a Bitcoin exchange, uh, but they, they weren't an exchange. Um, they were just, uh, they went on this amazing run where they actually had no products. They had no services in the specific one. They had no nothing at all. Um, but a lot of them say, we'll invest your Bitcoin for you. And they, they sort of the marketing pitchers, sit back, relax, give us your Bitcoin. And we'll do everything for you, this, this cryptography. And, and we've got these telegram groups, it's all very confusing. Just give us your money. And of course it's fantastic for them that they're using Bitcoin because, you know, with most investigations, your first talk about follow the money, but here in last, the problem is that it's more difficult with Bitcoin.

D.M. (09:28):

Um, so sometimes what they will do is they'll sort of anticipate, well, you know, the scheme is about to collapse, so they will tumble the Bitcoin. And when you tumble the Bitcoin, so when you have a transaction that will go from wallet to wallet B, and you can see that, that transaction, you can see all the transactions, but when you tumble it, it's effectively, it's, it's it's money, laundry. So it will take the contents of wallet B and then transfer the funds from that wallet and to 10 other wallets. And from each of those 10 wallets into 10, otherwise, and then distributed, you know, small decimal points to all these different wallets, scattered all over the place. And then sort of, uh, you know, the, the, the, the funds will reconvene, uh, at the, at the scams. So it was a scheme is all intervention.

D.M. (10:19):

And they'll go to an exchange that will draw it out and they'll have cash money, uh, or, or, you know, reinvest it. I've, I've seen, um, uh, this one lately where they seem to, as soon as you transferred the money into one of the Bitcoin wallets, they would draw them to Bitcoin up straight away, and then it would be tumbled. So it's very difficult to find. And then my suspicion, like, I, I can't say for sure is that they took that money and then they put that they reinvest that in other people's companies, uh, in, in tax havens, offshore, uh, countries, um, Dubai seems to be, uh, have of this activity. Uh, there's lots of people, uh, sort of gravitating around it because, uh, you know, a lot of countries don't have extradition, um, uh, for whatever reason the country doesn't seem to go after these scams, uh, uh, too badly.

D.M. (11:18):

Um, I mean, a smaller ship exceptions. There was God, I don't think he had anything to do with Bitcoin, but as GoCoder hush puppy, um, was a student, I think, is this a grain of salt? This Instagram account still exists? Um, I think, I think his thing was checked forwarding scams or, uh, something like that. I can't remember the exact story, but so yeah, there was, you know, you'll see them on their social media pictures of, uh, you know, the blue suits with the gold trim, the, uh, the fake Rolex gold watch driving a rented Bentley, uh, summer into battle is Dubai. Um, so another component that is difficult about these investigations is that it's on the internet, which means it's international. So let's say, uh, a Ponzi scheme or one of these Bitcoin, uh, Ponzi schemes could start here in South Africa. What if you have a large contingent in, um, in the states or in Italy, uh, Germany and so forth, it's very difficult to sort of consolidate that investigation. Uh, you know, uh, even if you're in law enforcement, how do you take all those people to task and how do you work with all those agencies and so forth? So it's, uh, I think the scams and the schemas rely on that a little bit. Um, it definitely does help them keep their tracks as well as the Bitcoin tumbling as well. So it's not an, it can be the largest schemes can be frayed, very complex, very difficult things to investigate for sure.

Leah (12:56):

How are some of these, uh, you know, the, the ringleaders of the Ponzi schemes, how are they finding their investors slash victims?

D.M. (13:07):

That's a good question. Um, some of them are just called Coles. If you go onto YouTube, for example, and if you search for, for Bitcoin, you're going to find a myriad of Bitcoin experts, crypto experts. And these are people I think they have, you know, they have, uh, a tenuous grasp on mathematics, let alone something as complex as Bitcoin and trading and so forth. Um, what I found is that a lot of folks, so most of the tier one folks, so they they're the ones at the top there, the tier one folks almost always have a history behind them. Uh, so for example, they'll that history of liquidation, um, uh, fraud, um, and also history of being involved in other schemes that are similar as well. So sometimes they, they're pretty easy to track a lot of them. And I haven't often seen, just appear out of the blue and be inspired and just, you know, go from this, uh, uh, this glorified, you know, Bitcoin fuel, uh, Ponzi scheme.

D.M. (14:10):

Um, and a lot of them are noticed also will hop from one pool of, uh, recruiters to the other, and then they'll, they'll share links. Uh, there we'll refer people, um, you know, the one, the one apex predator sales person that I can think of as well. Uh, you know, th there's I saw a list of all the schemes that he's involved in and, and he he's hopped dozens and dozens and dozens, and the Pam commission, obviously, because he's, I would say it's usually tier two. Um, so he's got a lot of folks under him. Um, I saw some bank statements the other day, which showed his commissions and he was earning some pretty good money just from the one scheme alone. Uh, and I would think if he has probably a good month, he's hedging his bets on all these different schemes, he could be making a, probably a hundred thousand dollars a month roundabout there.

D.M. (15:08):

Um, because you notice, you don't always get an insight of, to the actual figures because there's so much mysticism and deception, uh, with this as well. Um, and then, um, what's common as well as that, that they'll grip a whole bunch of people in that scheme will implode and believe it or not, those folks will follow the tier one folks right into the next scheme. Uh, it defies the defies logic, but, but people do it. Um, I mean, I've seen, uh, foxes does one scheme at the moment, uh, and there's like an essential, like a core group of, uh, investors. And I used the word investor, the term investors very loosely, because then they're not investing, they're donating their money. Um, I mean, they've followed these tier one guys. They're probably on their third or fourth iteration now. And you kind of wonder, at what point do they run out of money?

D.M. (16:10):

What point they realized? Well, you know, that's felt the next one failed, but for the next one has to work. So know the, the psychology comes into play as well. Now they also target folks that, that, um, you know, might have low self-esteem. For example, there's this feeling of inclusion, this feeling that you were part of something special, uh, some of the more sentenced to schemes will say, they'll, they'll go off to public figures in law enforcement and various agencies and say they hate Bitcoin. They don't want to see you get ahead. Uh, the banking system and prisons, us financial freedom, financial freedom, and that whole, that whole thing, when it's natural fact, you know, the law enforcement agencies are actually looking after the best interests of those folks. And, you know, that's what, that's what they're there for. So, so yeah, a lot of, a lot of hot blooded mysticism, a lot of untruths.

Leah (17:03):

We'll be right back to this interview

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Leah (18:04):

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Leah (18:52):

Welcome back to the podcast. Yeah. You know, I I've had this conversation with a friend of mine, actually. She is not in the investigative space at all, but just a really good friend of mine. We talked about how we had noted and we've studied like business and marketing things together. And this concept that businesses are risky. And so like, like that, there's no strategy behind it that it's just about striking gold. And I think that, you know, sometimes, I mean, I'm a big fan of shark tank and things like that, but it's like, oh, if I just had that moment, then I would be able to make a lot of money instead of you can actually craft and build a business base and have strategies and learn how this, this system of entrepreneurship and business, you know, companies and even like, uh, publicly traded companies and things like that, like there's strategy.

Leah (19:48):

And there's building that goes into that instead of, oh, I need a business idea that I then strike gold. And so I think that if that's somebody's mentality, because we've seen this, both of us have seen this personally in our lives is that if that individual's mentality is we'll all have businesses or risk, and it's just about meeting the right people at the right time and kind of having this, like, I dunno, you know, breakthrough moment, I guess then I could see how someone like that. And in my experience, those are the people who are more susceptible to Ponzi schemes, to multi-level marketing, because they feel like that's how business works. You know, I I'm amazed how many and, you know, I don't know if I have Facebook friends that listen to this podcast, but I am amazed how many of my Facebook friends will start, will join an MLM and then turn around that one doesn't work. Then they go join another one. You would think that that would, that the lack of evidence of success would like, oh, maybe I should try something different. But if they're equating business with like this chance, like there's a chance of this business happening instead of it being strategy and like something that you build, then there, that's how that MLM Ponzi scene could kind of be equated.

D.M. (21:06):

Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head there. Um, you know, I think also a person in this sort of, uh, in this day and age, also, if someone has their purpose taken away from them as well, they would feel defined by joining one of these groups. And it sort of, uh, gratifies them in a way that, you know, if they've lost a job or they're low on money or, um, you know, that something's gone on their personal lives where they need to connect with someone, um, you definitely think that, that they seem to have an addiction. Um, there was, I got contacted, uh, I, I spoke to this one person, uh, in South Africa and they'd been taking their claim for two or 3 million round. Um, so that would probably be about $200,000 give or take the, to have a fluctuating exchange rates. And, you know, he was mortified and angry at our man says not rots.

D.M. (22:05):

And, and, um, so I decided not to take that one on, there was lots of, uh, anomalies that I wasn't happy with. Uh, it's just too much dishonesty and, and not enough clarity and no, uh, I'm more cautious of that. You know, I wanna, I want to be a, if I'm ended up in court, I want to be the expert witness. I don't want to be the person in the doc, you know, being grilled. Um, and lo and behold, about six months later, this very same person is involved in a huge scheme, which I'll talk about a bit later. And there he is, again, just forking over thousands and thousands of dollars. And like Matt, I was like, can't you take up surfing as a hobby or, you know, skiing or something, where are you getting all this money from? Um, and you know, also going back to the products and services, you'll see them, uh, you know, the, the, the, the tier one guys talking, all these crazy things about, uh, you know, the big one is this encrypted phone.

D.M. (23:09):

Well, it's sort of out of fashion now, but every now and again would appear with different schemes and there'll be this magical Bitcoin phone that's super encrypted and James Bond would use it and then we'll do this. It's just, it's a Samsung generic Android device that has a gold cover. And when you boots it up, it just, the screen is different, which you can do. And it's, you know, I've got one sitting on my desk right now. It's, it's very low quality board farm. Um, but you know, it's, it's the crypto hat, you know, I I've bought, I bought two Bitcoin. I'm on telegram. I'm talking to all these guys, you know, it's just this, uh, yeah, it just, uh, uh, defeats logic sometimes. Um, it's something I always hear often, not just, you know, with other, um, like I've heard with extortion and fraud and things like that.

D.M. (23:57):

Folks all say the same thing to me. They say, I can't believe that I fell for it. And I say to them to be fair, you and I, we go to our nine to fives. We do our jobs and we have a level of proficiency at it because we're doing it every day and we apply ourselves. And, you know, hopefully everyone's lucky enough to be in a job that lacks, I can be passionate about something and do well at it. And I say it to me, you need to remember that these folks wake up in the morning and then nine to five is devising schemes, which part you with, with your money. And they're very, very good at it. Um, you know, also the Bitcoin ones I tell folks, well, look at the returns, these are unrealistic returns. How is viable for a company to giving you the, or giving you back this higher return?

D.M. (24:47):

It's just not feasible. The second sign is that, what is the credibility? Does this person have a degree in computer science? Are they a cryptographer? Uh, do they have 20, 30 years in the it field? Um, you know, do they have the equivalent financial experience, but these days a crypto expert or someone, or the Facebook accounts, uh, with, with no actual experience, then the third thing I tell folks to look for is that when have you been rushed into a decision? It's not a good thing because when I'm teaching social engineering, uh, I'll tell delegates, if you want to get someone to make a brash decision, create a timeframe for them to work. And so you've got five minutes to say yes or no, otherwise this offer's off the table and you, this is a great opportunity. And it works. It works with a lot of people. Uh, and then, you know, at the two minute mark, and you're like, man, you know, my friend went to said, yes. And they did so well. And then before the five minutes, you've got your decision, the tier one guys got your money and that's, that's pretty much it.

Leah (26:00):

So based on the feedback that we get from our listeners, because we actually don't know who is, you know, which people are downloading our episodes or things like that. But if, based on the feedback from our listeners, uh, we have a very wide range of people who listen to this podcast. And so before we get into your case study, cause I want to make sure that we have enough time for you to discuss this case. Uh, if someone wanted to purchase Bitcoin, they don't have to go through these guys that you've been talking about. They can just go purchase Bitcoin, where would they actually purchase Bitcoin?

D.M. (26:37):

That's a good question. Yeah. They don't have to have anything to do with these people whatsoever. Um, you can just download an app on your phone, uh, and then whatever exchange, um, is sort of, uh, best suited to your needs. You can just go and purchase a Bitcoin through that exchange. Uh, some exchanges are bogus, some are not reputable, but there's, there are large ones. Uh, I'm just, I'm not going to mention any. Um, but yeah, and then you can go purchase a Bitcoin. You don't have to do anything with it. It's probably a good idea to do that. Um, uh, on the Lex Friedman podcast, he was actually mentioning, um, someone gave him some Bitcoin. And before that, even though a lot of its guests on his podcasts, uh, are heavily involved in Bitcoin, he never actually had any. And then he just created a wallet and then dispense and went and played with it.

D.M. (27:32):

Um, I would avoid YouTube altogether, although there's one channel that, that I can recommend, uh, is, uh, a pretty smart guy's name's Chris trade. Uh, he's, he's, he's pretty savvy. Um, but also, you know, just obviously steer clear of folks that are, uh, giving you financial advice as well, because they want most times if you're not on that too, but it's, it's relatively simple. Now also the problem how these, why these schemes are so effective as that legislation can't keep pace of technology. And then a lot of these guys are just discussing on the French. So you seeing, uh, a lot of countries clamping down. I'm not sure if it's still in place, but I believe Nigeria is banned Bitcoin, uh, upright, um, there's rumors of, uh, massive criminal organizations using Bitcoin to siphon funds and, uh, uh, launder money, which is a huge problem.

D.M. (28:30):

Um, there's, there's another crime associated with, uh, I don't wanna talk out of turn. I don't know if it's actually an actual thing. Um, but they're, they're, they're intrinsic problems with any technology could be misappropriated. Um, but yeah, but Bitcoin is not a bad thing at all. I think it's here to stay. I think, I think how we use it in the form that it's a now will, will, will change. Um, if you look at the old days, Betamax and VHS tapes, uh, probably put more contemporary, uh, uh, Blu-ray and HD it's, whatever the market adopts becomes a de facto standard. So the cryptocurrency of choice might not even be Bitcoin. It might be Ethereum or, or something else. Um, but I would stick with the Bitcoin was the Ethereum. They are other coins. Um, I know like a tare is sort of free branded.

D.M. (29:25):

They're doing some interesting things. They're incorporating gambling into their business model. They marketing it quite heavy that's and that, I believe they're building these hotels that are game of themes. So, you know, uh, all the old, uh, eighties, our kids, our kids, arcade kids like myself, we're definitely go stay at one of those. But so there, there are some interesting spaces it's just, yeah, it's difficult because there's so many voices telling you what to do in that space, but, um, you don't have to be involved with those folks, uh, at all. I'll give you another example of sort of how Bitcoin becomes almost like a virus is that you're going to find when you refer to your stats, I was having a conversation with, uh, uh, a journalist, uh, for, uh, a large attack website in the UK. Um, and he's a security guy and he was actually saying that they weren't running any Bitcoin stories as soon as they do their site is inundated with bots and spam and all kinds of craziness. So it's going to be interesting to see what happens in your stats with the, you know, the SEO has got Bitcoin in it, see what happens there. So you might have, you know, your, your, your listenership might grow up a bit.

Leah (30:36):

Well, that would definitely be exciting. Thanks so much for taking time to talk with me today. And if any of our listeners would like to learn more about your work, what's the best way for them to do so.

D.M. (30:45):

Uh, you could reach me on my website. That's a Defplex.wordpress.com. That's a Delta echo Foxtrot Lima echo x-ray for those of the listeners that can't understand my accent.

Leah (31:00):

And we'll make sure that we put that in the show notes. Thank you again for your time.

Closing (31:08):

Hey, investigators, I just wanted to stop in and let you know that we are going on a mid season break until October 15th. We have a great season coming up and we can't wait for you all to hear the amazing episodes we have coming. But if you're really itching for some forensic accounting podcasts, we highly recommend Kelly. Paxton's great woman in fraud, as well as Trent Russel's podcast, the audit, and many more be sure to check them out in the meantime, but don't forget to look out for us after October 15th. We hope you guys have a great fall and we'll hear from you soon. Thank you for listening to the investigation game. For more information on any of the topics brought up on this show, visit Workman forensics.com. If you enjoyed our show, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. You can also connect with us on any social media platform by searching Workman forensics. If you have any questions or topic ideas, please email us@podcastatworkmanforensics.com. Thank you.