Episode 57: The Art of Pretend and Related Investigations with Javier Leiva
On this week's episode, Javier Leiva discusses a side of investigations we have not visited much in the past, the side of the pretender. Javier explains how his podcast started off as a simple discussion of people pretending to be someone else but quickly turned into a true crime podcast.
PRETEND is a story-driven show about real people pretending to be someone who they're not. The podcast features interviews with con artists, snake oil salesmen, and undercover agents—anyone living a lie.
His investigative podcast career has taken him to some wild places. Javier reported from inside a cult, which is the basis for this film. During his reporting, the host inadvertently became part of the story. He's also interviewed a woman who sells bleach as a form of medication. And his reporting exposed a prank ring responsible for thousands of dollars in damages.
Javier worked 15 years in television, producing documentaries, news, and commercials. Most recently, he's worked as a creative director at various marketing agencies. Regardless of the medium, his passion is storytelling.
Connect with Javier:
PRETEND Podcast: pretendradio.org
Criminal Conduct Podcast: criminalconduct.net
LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/javierjleiva/
Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/PretendPod
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TRANSCRIPT:
Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the investigation game podcast brought to you by Workman forensics.
Leah Wietholter (00:08):
Welcome to the investigation game podcast. I'm Leah Wietholter, CEO of Workman forensics in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Joining me today is Javier Leiva. And I just want to give a shout out to one of our listeners and one of Javier his fans for connecting me to Javier. So thank you, Matt so much for connecting us. This is a really great interview. Javier Leiva is a podcast producer and host of PRETEND a documentary style podcast, pretend as a story-driven show about real people, pretending to be someone who they're not. The podcast features interviews with con artists, snake oil salesman, and undercover agents. Anyone living a lie. His investigative podcast career has taken him to some wild places he even reported from inside a cult. During his reporting, the host inadvertently became part of the story. He also interviewed a woman who sells bleach as a form of medication and his reporting exposed a prank ring responsible for thousands of dollars in damages. Javier worked 15 years in television producing documentaries, news and commercials. Most recently he's worked as a creative director at various marketing agencies, regardless of the medium. His passion is storytelling. Thank you for joining me today, Javier.
Javier Leiva (01:12):
Oh, thank you for having me. What a, what a pleasure, what an honor it is to be on your show. How cool
Leah Wietholter (01:17):
I'm excited about a conversation. And today I'd like to learn about some of the investigations that you featured as episodes on your podcast, pretend, uh, but first, what inspired you to create this podcast?
Javier Leiva (01:28):
Well, what inspired me to create the podcast, cause I often tell people I'm not even into true crime. That's not my thing, you know? But investigation and news is my thing, right? And I started off my career early on making documentaries, producing documentaries for a local PBS station. And then I moved into news and I loved that. It was like every day you just go on an adventure, you know, it was just like, go ask questions, like, you know, follow people, chase people down. It was, it was fun. But eventually I moved out of news and I got a real job and, but I missed it. I missed it. I still had that, that itch I wanted to scratch. And so that's what, what really made me want to start an investigative podcast. The true crime part of it was kind of an accident.
Javier Leiva (02:14):
Um, I have a cousin who is a con artist. I'm sure all of you listening right now has a black sheep in the family while he's our black sheep in our family. And I knew he was a con artist, but I didn't know exactly what he had done, you know, like the details. And so, I was starting to formulate the idea for this podcast and I was in Miami one day and I said, Hey, you know, I'm doing this podcast. Would you mind if I record? And can I ask you all these questions? And he just laid down in his bed and I sat down beside him, my iPhone and I just recorded. He confessed everything he has ever done. And I was shocked. I mean, cause like I knew he was a, the black sheep of the valley, bad, like no idea. He told me from the beginning, you know how he started off as a small time crook breaking into people's homes to like owning a medical clinic with hiring a fake doctor, writing scripts for opioids. And it was just like, it blew my mind then. And that was really what defined the show. It's like, oh this shows not just about people pretending to be out, to be someone else, but it's really about crime and people pretending to be someone else. So that's, that's how it happened. So it was really a happy accident.
Leah Wietholter (03:25):
I've got to tell you based on that story and some of the episodes I've listened to, you must just have this face and this like, I don't know sense about you, that people just confess to you. Cause sometimes the information that you get out of people.
Javier Leiva (03:39):
I'm like, why are you telling me this? Yeah, I think the same thing. Well, because you know, my approach is I try not to be judgmental. If I, if I approach a conversation with an opinion or an agenda or something like that, if I don't see it from their point of view, they're not going to talk to me. So honestly, a lot of the con artists that I talk to, they, I'm always scared that moment, where the episode is done and I hit publish because now it's like out there in the world and they don't listen to it before I publish it. And I, and then I always write them an email or a text and I'm like, Hey, the episodes up. And I'm scared about their reaction, but then nine times out of 10, they love it. They love it because like I told their story the way they want it to tell their story and they take a lot of pride in their crimes. So, and I'll never understand that.
Leah Wietholter (04:32):
You know it, okay. So in my line of work, when we have a fraud investigation and in like an embezzlement and the subject is still employed with the employer, which is what we recommend and then we do our work and then we go and confront them with some sort of interview. And then I go tell people about this in trainings afterwards. They're like, why would people admit to it? Like, why do these people want to help you with your investigation after you're done? And I mean, I've always wondered the same. I'm like, I don't know. But I mean, what you're talking about, that's true. Like, cause when I go into those interviews, I mean, I can't help, but see myself sitting there, like if I had made similar choices, you know, I, I don't, I don't know just the humanity behind it.
Javier Leiva (05:15):
You really don't know how you're going to react when you're in those situations. And I was just I'm listening because I'm rewatching breaking bad. Cause I love that. And I listened to, they have a companion podcast and a creator, Vince Gilligan, he says, he said something I thought was really insightful. He goes, when you're writing for a bad guy, the bad guy, doesn't think he's a bad guy. You see what I'm saying? And that's how I approach this thing. I don't see these people as bad people. They just made bad decisions I guess. And some of them make bad decisions over and over. And some of them do it intentionally, but they're not bad people, you know? So I always try to find the good in them and try to relate to them no matter how bad they are, you know?
Leah Wietholter (06:00):
Yeah. I think, um, I am not a fan of an attitude. That's kind of prevalent in fraud investigation that I'll see online where it's like this, can you believe this person did this? But you know, as fraud examiners, we talk about this fraud triangle. And part of the, one of the sides of the fraud triangle is rationalization. And if I can rationalize anything, then that's how someone doing something that we say is bad. I mean, they're stealing money, they're selling drugs, whatever. But somehow they've been able to rationalize that, to convince themselves that they're still okay.
Javier Leiva (06:30):
Yeah. And then when the victims become the con artists to that, that I've had situations like that where, you know, you would think with the victim, they shouldn't be the con artist, but there's a level of greed there too, where they, they rationalize why they played along or something like that. You know, it gets murky, you know?
Leah Wietholter (06:48):
Well, you do a great job communicating all of these stories. And I am amazed at some of the content that you like, like that the person you're interviewing has shared. I'm like, oh my gosh.
Javier Leiva (06:59):
Oh. And, and, and then the sport, the part that I enjoy the most is that right now I'm working on season eight and it's hunting these people down and trying to convince them to talk to me. So once I convince them to talk to me, I know, I know I can handle it from there, but like just trying to get them to talk to me, I'm always amazed at the people that actually say yes that they want to talk to me.
Leah Wietholter (07:21):
Yeah. Are they not afraid of like law enforcement using your podcast to come find them or something?
Javier Leiva (07:27):
I had this episode the other day that the guy's confessing to all these crimes and he's like, oh, I guess statute of limitations is, and I'm like, you guessed, like, why are you telling me all this stuff? You know? Oh my gosh.
Leah Wietholter (07:38):
And he knows you're recording it. Yeah. This is going to go on your podcast, which is super popular.
Javier Leiva (07:43):
I think, um, the vanity part kind of takes play in there and bypasses their judgment. I don't know. You are interviewing
Leah Wietholter (07:52):
Like really clever people like to do what they've done. A lot of them have to be like pretty clever. Like I'm thinking about the one, the guy that would kidnap couples and take them up,
Javier Leiva (08:02):
Right? Yes.
Leah Wietholter (08:04):
That one. And, and like just the area and just listening to those recordings, the arrogance of, yeah.
Javier Leiva (08:09):
I mean, I was listening to like hours and hours and hours of this guy justifying what he was doing. And it makes sense when he's talking about it. It makes perfect sense. He's like, all right. So I had this girl and her boyfriend and I don't know what to do with them. So I had to kill the boyfriend and I kept her in there, but I fed her and I was like, you know, bring her books or whatever. And he was just like rationalizing this stuff, but the way he was explaining it, it, I was like, yeah, that makes sense. And then you step back and you're like, no, he's a psycho, you know? But, but when you get close enough to the center of that psycho, you see all their rationalizations start making sense. Which is crazy.
Leah Wietholter (08:49):
I like how he was, I think talking to the sheriff for something. And he's like, well, you know, like we do in, and the Sheriff's like, no, not like we do. No, not the case. Right. Gosh. So for each of these investigations, like how do you learn about the situation? Did they come through tips or something in the news that you find interesting? How did
Javier Leiva (09:10):
What's your process? A lot of people ask me that and it happens in different ways, right? So like some people send me tips. Sometimes I read a story on a newspaper, but nine times out of 10, it's just, I'm curious about a particular topic. So remember this whole topic of pretend, this concept of people pretending to be someone else, it's just an experiment to see how many different ways can I explore that concept of people pretending to be someone else. So I usually pick a topic and then go find the story. So I do it in reverse. So right now I'm doing a whole series on hypnosis. All I the central question is, is it real? Is it not like that's, that's how I start. Then I started finding stories and you'd be surprised. I mean, I have, um, hypnosis has been used in court trials as testimony and people have been convicted and gone to jail because of, uh, the witness used hypnosis to identify him.
Javier Leiva (10:09):
Uh, there's a lady who says that she could, uh, make certain male body parts grow using hypnosis. There's a, like, you see how this starts unraveling. It's like, when you're going down a rabbit hole, you know, on Wikipedia, everybody does it except I have a podcast, but I'm, you're listening to me going down a rabbit hole, but it starts off with, Hey, I haven't done anything on hypnosis. I did a whole thing about magicians. I'm like magicians are pretending to be someone else. And I did this whole series on magicians and it was, but it starts off with this general topic. And then it kind of goes from there.
Leah Wietholter (10:47):
So I guess there's this, I haven't gotten to watch it yet. A friend texted me about it. I think yesterday there's a show on HBO about, um, I
Javier Leiva (10:55):
Generation. Yeah.
Leah Wietholter (10:58):
It's, it's like, it's like kind of millennial generation type thing, but it's this, these people pretending to be entrepreneurs, but really they're con artists like ripping people off. And so that would be an that's kind of what I thought of immediately was like, yeah, you're right. All of these people like labeled as entrepreneurs, but really they're just con artists using that as, because it's such a popular thing to do right now, you know?
Javier Leiva (11:22):
Oh, is it generation hustle or something like that? I started watching that, you know, it's one of those things I could be working at McDonald's you don't want to eat McDonald's so like, I try to watch it because it seems like something I would be interested in, but it's just work is it sounds like work, you know, like sometimes when I want to watch TV, I just want to zone out.
Leah Wietholter (11:42):
Same. I'm like, give me Marvel. I don't want to watch FBI shows, you know, like I need a world that doesn't exist, so I totally get it. So, um, whenever you, you know, have this idea for these topics and you start trying to find people and all of that, what is your investigation process look like? Like, do you really just like reach out to people and just say, Hey, I've got this. I want to know about this. Will you go on the record and talk to me? I mean, how, what does that look like?
Javier Leiva (12:07):
Like today's, you're captured, you're, you're capturing and recording this episode on a day where I'm doing literally that I'm cold calling people. I'm emailing people. I have like five or six different stories I'm working on at the same time. And I have a list of people that I need to reach. And I have databases that I tap into to find their address, their phone numbers, their email address. I find them on social media. You know, I find people that know these people to see if I could get to those people anywhere I could to get these people on. Sometimes, sometimes I just like have a great story and nobody wants to talk to me. And I hate those because some, some of those just are dead on arrival or, you know, but, um, but I keep going at it.
Leah Wietholter (12:53):
Yeah. That's awesome. I've got to say, I am slightly jealous of your job doing this because there are so many things in the world being an investigator that I'll see something somewhere and go, man, if only I had time to request these documents, I could actually see who's being paid on
Javier Leiva (13:10):
This. You know, like, no, this is not my job. This is not my hobby.
Leah Wietholter (13:17):
That's awesome. Which seems to be working really well though. Yeah.
Javier Leiva (13:20):
I mean, it's great, but it's not like quit your job money, you know, it's like it pays for itself, which is the only requirement. Cause if I, if I had to actually put up personal money to keep this thing going, it probably wouldn't be worth it because the amount of time that I spend on it, none of the money is I'm getting less than minimum wage. I've never done the math, but I'm sure it's like pennies on the dollar, but, but it's fun. And, and it keeps me engaged. Thank God. During the COVID, you know, when everybody was locked down, this at least made the time go by quicker, you know? Oh
Leah Wietholter (13:52):
Yeah, for sure. That's awesome. Um, so I think you kind of answered this one, but do all of your investigations result in some sort of a podcast episode? Do you try to, even if people don't talk to you, do you still try to talk about it?
Javier Leiva (14:05):
I try to, if I invest this much time into something, I'm going to get a story out of it somehow, you know, like, and I'll give you an example of this hypnosis one that I'm working on. Oh yeah. I want to do an episode on hypnosis about regressive hypnosis or like there's this Harvard professor who is like a legit professor, who he was the one that developed the psychology department at Harvard. He really believed in regressive psychology, you know, hypnosis. And he, people who have been abducted quote unquote by UFO's would come and see him. And he would really believe their story. So for me, there was this legitimate angle to this thing. It's like, when we think about people who have been abducted by UFO's, we dismiss them as crazy, but there's a psychology expert that really believes in these people. So I wanted to do something on that, but I keep striking out. Like, I can't find people who have been abducted by aliens who are seen this guy and then the professor's dead and you know, so I'm like running into dead ends, but I still want to do this story. So I'm going to try to figure it out.
Leah Wietholter (15:15):
Yeah that's awesome. Well, maybe since we have this audience of like investigators and I feel like investigators just know interesting people, so maybe they know somebody who can like help you.
Javier Leiva (15:24):
Yeah. Have you known anybody that's regressive psychology or has been abducted by aliens? Uh, ideally both.
Leah Wietholter (15:33):
If you're like making your wishlist, like both things, please. That's hilarious. So, okay. The first story that I'd like to start with to ask you about is about investigating a cult. I, this was the series that whenever Matt, this friend of mine referred me to your podcast, uh, this was the series that I listened to. And so I'm curious how this came about, um, and what you found and then kind of some of your takeaways and just how that case has kind of followed you.
Javier Leiva (16:06):
Yeah, that's another one. So I kind of, we started this conversation by talking about my con artist, uh, cousin, but the show was not supposed to be a crime show. I produced like five episodes about people pretending to be someone else like actors, comedians, ghost writers, that kind of stuff. And then when I interviewed him, I realized that this was a crime show and now I had to scramble because I'm like, I can't air those other ones. I have to like come up with crime related topics. Right. And so I'm scrambling looking for a story. And I, and I realized that, well, I think I went to the grocery store, which is like two minutes away to get milk. And I heard this little blurb on the radio about this cult in Western, North Carolina. And I'm like, Ooh, that could be interesting. So I started looking this up and I find that one of the former members lived in near where I live.
Javier Leiva (16:56):
And so I thought, well, let's see if he would talk to me. And he did. And we met at a baseball park and we sat in the dugout and he was just telling me everything. And I was just recording everything. And that was season one of my show. It's just me trying to figure out what the show is about. You know, like doing all sorts of crazy stories, but that called the episode kind of followed me. So I did three episodes in season one and people still wanted more and wanted more and wanted more. And so I went and decided that I was going to do a whole 11 episode series on the, on the cult. And I went to Western, North Carolina where the cult, um, is located. And I was even invited by the cult leader to spend the day at the church, which was not planned.
Javier Leiva (17:43):
That was not part of the original plan, but that's what happens once you get into the story. I always tell people when I do a series that I have, like the first half is planned, the second half is just, we'll see what happens, you know, because this story always evolves as you're doing it. Sure. And so I, and I had, you know, and people still talk about that. Like the cult, that's what they want to know about all the time. And I really enjoyed that long form storytelling, where it was 11 episodes to tell one story. So that's why I started a whole new podcast called criminal conduct where I could do a whole series on one topic. So each season is just one topic, but pretend it's more episodic, you know, like one or two episodes on a topic.
Leah Wietholter (18:26):
So in this cult, just in, you know, if our listeners haven't heard about it, um, what I found interesting about how you covered it was that you did talk to the person, you know, that you mentioned that lived near you. So you talked to him, but then you also reached out as I think, any good journalists or investigators should, but you also reached out to the other side to get their opinion.
Javier Leiva (18:48):
They're not very media friendly by the way. Like they don't like to talk to them maybe. So that was quite a challenge. I never thought that they would talk to me. How did,
Leah Wietholter (18:59):
How did it come about that? The founder, like,
Javier Leiva (19:02):
Because I started, I started doing the series, like the first four or five episodes came out. And by the way, this is season three, for anyone who wants it, listen to it, like just skip to season three because the first season is just three episodes. So I kind of, if you start in season three, it will be fine, but I did the first four or five episodes. And I guess they were listening and, and I had emailed them, but never heard back. And then all of a sudden, one day I'm camping out in the front yard or something with my kids. I'm just like camping. And I wake up and you know how you pick up your phone and you let the, the phone like kind of wake up your eyes. I get an email from Jane Whaley, the cult leader who's by the way is probably in her eighties. Now it's just like this little old lady with blonde helmet, hair and terrifying, terrifying person. I noticed a little old lady shouldn't be terrified, but everybody answers to Jane. And she said that God spoke to her and that I should come visit the church and see what it was like. And I said, of course, and I forget because it's been a couple of years now, but I jumped in the car and we went to go visit Jane.
Leah Wietholter (20:15):
Oh my gosh. Did, did you feel like whenever you were there everybody was on their best behavior and trying to make things not weird? Or did you feel like they were just themselves?
Javier Leiva (20:22):
Well, you know, it could have gone either way, right? It could have been like, they were, they could have just been like, we got him let's
Leah Wietholter (20:28):
They could have just started blasting Prairie, right.
Javier Leiva (20:31):
Or whatever they actually did. Okay. Then I haven't made it to that episode yet. Yeah, they did. But actually they were on their best behavior. And it was weird because after I visited the church, I felt so loved because they do this love bombing. And that's how know, like that's what the people who, um, say that they've been a former members who say that they've been abused at the church. They say that when you start out the first couple of weeks, the first couple of months, they love bomb you and you don't see any other weird stuff. And then slowly you start realizing that they have this blasting prayer, which is what you were referring to a blasting. Prayer is this it's a form of deliverance is a way to cast the demons out of your body. And what they do is that they yell and they're not actual words.
Javier Leiva (21:16):
They just yell at you. And when one person's doing that, this powerful, but when a whole church is blasting, you, you know, it becomes really loud. It was just a very loud place. And so after the service, which is lovely, I mean, they had great music and all that stuff. And Jane and I went back to her office and she was telling me about, you know, she let me interview her, um, not on the record, like you could listen and see why, but, um, she let me interview her. And then she was describing the blasting prayer, and she actually performed a blasting prayer on me. And that was terrifying, terrifying, but she was just showing me what it was like. Yeah. It was a very rare for a non church member to, to see the blasting prayer. And they call them W.O.F.F. Because word of faith fellowships are w O F F F. So around town, they call them the wolfs because they hear them howling, you know, even at night. And that was the, the mystery, you know, is the, the Wolf people. Yeah,
Leah Wietholter (22:20):
Interesting when I was listening to it and, you know, w we'll get back to the investigation stuff, but when I was listening and, and I guess I listened to the first three, listen to the 11 now. Um, but, uh, what was interesting to me is that like, I'm in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where the buckle of the Bible belt, that sort of thing
Javier Leiva (22:40):
From Tulsa, or
Leah Wietholter (22:42):
Not even surprised,
Javier Leiva (22:45):
Came from the Kenneth Keegan, uh, Kenneth Keegan Copeland cope. Uh, no, um, oh man, it's been so many years. Uh, I'm forgetting church, but anyways, what were you going to say?
Leah Wietholter (22:58):
So, um, wait, so the word of faith fellowship got there,
Javier Leiva (23:03):
Starting to talk. Okay.
Leah Wietholter (23:05):
So, um, but as you, you know, the first interview was telling, he was telling his story. I thought, oh my gosh, this is kind of in a gray area. You know, when I think of cult, I think of like way crazier stuff.
Javier Leiva (23:20):
Yeah.
Leah Wietholter (23:21):
And so just like the gray area. And then I found just even like law enforcement's involvement is that's kind of weird as well, just because it's like right on this line. Um, and the fact that some people like don't even realize that things are happening to their kids. And, um, like psychologically, we're not even talking about anything like psychological abuse and stuff.
Javier Leiva (23:43):
Well, I mean, without getting political or anything, when I, if I were to do the same story now, right. In 2021, it wouldn't be as weird as when I did it. You have to like, remember when I first said the story, because now, I mean, we're talking about, they identify as a conservative Christian Church, you know, church, right. But like you said, the gray area is all the accusations of abuse that's happening and the locking people up and isolation for up to a year. And, uh, trying to beat the gay demons out of people, you know, like that, that's where the gray area lies, but there are so many, um, like now it's so common to see this like ultra conservative Christian Church that it made the gray even grayer, I guess. Yeah. It doesn't seem as weird now as it was when, when I first said the story, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
Leah Wietholter (24:46):
Interesting. I still thought it was weird. Um, okay. We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.
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Leah Wietholter (26:27):
Welcome back to my interview with Javier Leiva. So you have a couple episodes on the, on your podcast, pretend about COVID-19 scams and, uh, mainly about like stealing stimulus checks. And so just because that's a relevant topic, how did you run this story? And then what did you discover?
Javier Leiva (26:45):
You know, I, I had no plans just like no one had a plan for COVID-19, but I felt like it was, you know, whenever there's a natural disaster or hurricane tornado or a flood or whatever, that's, that's prime time for con artists, right? Like they seize on those opportunities. And so a pandemic is no different whenever something catastrophic happens. And when the government is trying to send out relief really fast, they're bypassing traditional like safeguards, and it's just get the money out there, get it out there as fast as possible. And they create so many opportunities for, for fraudsters or con artists to seize on, you know?
Leah Wietholter (27:29):
Yeah. So how were people actually stealing the stimulus checked, I guess? Is it similar to when somebody like claims your tax refund?
Javier Leiva (27:37):
Yeah. Very similar to that. Uh, people were claiming other people's unemployment checks. Yeah. Yeah. Um, they, you know, the vaccine or, sorry, the COVID relief money sometimes came in as direct deposit. So if you did your taxes and you always got a refund through direct deposit, it was just gone to your account. But if you didn't, if you always had to pay or you always got a check from the IRS, well, they would send you a check because the money came through the IRS. Well, they're mailing you a check that creates a scenario for fraud. They were also mailing people, these debit cards, and those could get stolen. So there, you know, there are so many scams, that's just the financial part of it, but there's a phishing and spoofing scams where, you know, um, and this, I didn't even cover on the show, but even after the episode came out on the vaccines, started rolling out and was wanting a vaccine.
Javier Leiva (28:30):
And some people were trying to get it as fast as possible, and they might get calls or text messages about a vaccine, or even like antibody kits that don't really work. But everybody wants to know, you know, I took this vaccine, do I really have the antibodies? Um, they, I mean, just so many scams, um, the miracle cures, you know, um, the colonial silver, I covered this on my show where they, they they're, they're saying that, you know, colonial silver kills all these viruses and they said it kills COVID 19 or like bleach. So I did a series in season two, I think about, um, people who inject bleach in or drink bleach. Yeah. And, you know, I would imagine that those same people it's called the MMS miracle mineral solution or something like that. And they would give it to babies and stuff like that. I wouldn't imagine that those same people are also telling people that this MMS, the bleach kills COVID. So weary of these peoples seizing these opportunities, because they're exploiting people, people like us who really suffering either with the virus or financially. So it's kind of sad how, how, how many different scams, I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
Leah Wietholter (29:53):
There were so many, um, I think I even saw like where some COVID testing was even fake, you know, they'd charge people for COVID testing, especially when testing was so limited. I mean, just taking advantage of the fear and vulnerability of people during that time.
Javier Leiva (30:08):
Yeah. I heard about the vaccine lotteries, you know, how some states are having a vaccine lottery to see if, you know, they can entice people to take more vaccines. They've figured out a way, you know, like they're giving people phony calls and phony text messages claiming that they won the check and, and in return they need their personal and financial information to process the prize. I mean, you know, stuff like that. Right. So, I mean, you just have to be smart and question everything like the government will never call you and never ask you for your stuff, you know?
Leah Wietholter (30:39):
Exactly. Well, before we wrap up, I wanted to touch on one more series that you did a series of stories about, uh, the treasure hunter and, um, what were the characters in this scheme up to?
Javier Leiva (30:53):
It was just a weird story. This one actually came from them from a listener who said, Hey, have you heard, you should check this out. And immediately it caught my attention, a treasure hunter con artist. I had to like dig into that. And what I found was that, I mean, long story short, there was this guy, who's a treasure hunter off the coast of Florida who claims that he found this Peruvian burial mask, like just buried in the, in the sand, you know, off of the, the treasure coast and Florida would just central Florida Barrow beach, that area that a lot of ships actually did wreck their Spanish galleons. And so there is treasure down there, down there, but so I'm thinking, wow, so this company, this treasure hunting company is suing this treasure hunter because they claimed that he's a con artist that he's not really a treasure hunter.
Javier Leiva (31:46):
So I started digging into the story and it turns out that not only is this guy kind of sketchy, but this company making the claims that this guy is a treasure think they're kind of sketchy too. And it turned into like this con artist con artist story, which is fascinating to listen to. And it actually ended up being longer of a series than I was hoping for. And it was so painful to put together. I mean, very enjoyable for you to listen to her. But for me, the amount of BS that I had to listen to her, cause it was just like, usually you talk to the con artists and to the victim, but here I'm talking to the con artists into another con artist and they were just giving it to me from both sides. That it was, it was exhausting.
Leah Wietholter (32:26):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, that one's actually. Um, so Matt had told me about that one and then also, um, I saw it in your bio and information and I was like, okay, that, one's the next one on my list. So I'm going to check that one out. I've got a long drive to today. So it's so funny.
Javier Leiva (32:41):
Cause I have like 80 something episodes now and it's hard to keep up with. And when people ask me, which one's my favorite, it's hard for me to pick. I do have my favorite. And um, I'm doing a follow-up on my favorite episode. It's just actually a story about a stalker. It was a woman. I don't know if you listened to it, but it's called the cousins. And she reached out, you know, she wanted to learn more about her heritage. So she went on a genealogy website and she found some second and third cousins like just distant cousins since you started interacting with them. And it turned out to be a really bad idea because these cousins started stalking her and there was SNM and there was and there was a cannibalism and there was stocking and, and it just turned into a crazy story.
Javier Leiva (33:30):
And I almost hard to describe, but I'm doing another stalker story for season eight. And those terrify me because it's a real mystery of who is, who are these people or who is this person stocking, you know, these people. And then do I even know that truth? You know, like who do I believe? It's, it's the only kind of stories. I mean, visiting a cult made me nervous for the day, but this one just makes me nervous all the time, you know? Cause you're dealing with an unknown person.
Leah Wietholter (34:08):
Yeah, yeah. That would be a little creepy. Especially for someone who didn't set out to do a true crime podcast. Yeah,
Javier Leiva (34:15):
Yeah. Every now and then I asked her, I said, why are you doing this again? Right,
Leah Wietholter (34:19):
Right. That's awesome. Javier, thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today. And if any of our listeners would like to connect with you or learn more about your work and your show, what's the best way to do so.
Javier Leiva (34:30):
Just follow me on social media. You can DM me on Twitter and Instagram, which is @pretendpod where you can find me on Facebook. I think that's @pretendpod too or /pretendpod. I don't know. But yeah, I would love to hear any of your questions or what'd you guys think about the show? Yeah. Maybe
Leah Wietholter (34:47):
You'll get some good tips on other, uh, other things,
Javier Leiva (34:53):
Things that would scare you. I don't know. Just every time I get a message, it's something terrifying. Oh,
Leah Wietholter (35:01):
Oh, okay. Well maybe they can, I don't know. Mark it lighthearted anyway. All right. Well, we'll make sure to link to these in the show notes and thank you again. Thank you so much for having me.
Outro (35:10):
Thank you for listening to the investigation game. For more information on any of the topics brought up on this show, visit Workman forensics.com. If you enjoyed our show, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. You can also connect with us on any social media platform by searching the Workman forensics. If you have any questions or topic ideas, please email us at podcast@workmanforensics.com. Thank you.