Episode 53: Embezzlement: How to Detect, Prevent and Investigate Pink-Collar Crime with Kelly Paxton
On this week's episode of the Investigation Game Podcast, Kelly Paxton sits with us once again to discuss her book, Embezzlement: How to Detect, Prevent and Investigate Pink-Collar Crime. As well as the importance of self branding in today's social media driven world.
Kelly Paxton has more than 20 years of investigative experience. Kelly is a Certified Fraud Examiner, Private Investigator, author, and podcast host-founder of Great Women in Fraud. Ms. Paxton started her career in law enforcement as a Special Agent for US Customs Office of Investigations in 1993. Ms. Paxton was recruited by US Customs for her expertise in finance. She worked white collar fraud, money laundering and narcotics cases. She also was responsible for the district’s undercover operations and financial reporting of these operations. Kelly worked as a contract investigator doing over 1000 security background investigations for the Office of Personnel Management and Department of Homeland Security.
Kelly has worked in the public and private sector. Most recently she worked as an investigator for Nike. Her investigations include embezzlement, conflict of interest, intellectual property, Open Source Intelligence and fraud. Kelly is also the proud owner of pinkcollarcrime.com, a passion of hers about embezzlers in the workplace. Her book, Embezzlement How to Prevent, Detect and Investigate Pink-Collar Crime, was published in December, 2020.
Be sure to also sign up for this year's Global ACFE Fraud Conference to see both Leah and Kelly's presentations: https://www.fraudconference.com/32nd-home.aspx
Connect with Kelly:
https://greatwomeninfraud.com/
https://podcast.greatwomeninfraud.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellypaxton/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/pdxcfe
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Transcript:
Intro (00:00):
Welcome to the investigation game podcast brought to you by Workman forensics.
Leah (00:07):
Welcome to the investigation game podcast. I'm Leah Wietholter, CEO of Workman forensics in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Joining me today is Kelly Paxton. Kelly has more than 20 years of investigative experience. She's a certified fraud examiner, private investigator, author, and podcast host, founder of the great women in fraud podcast. Kelly started her career in law enforcement as a special agent for us customs office of investigations. In 1993, she was recruited by us customs for experience in finance, where she worked cases involving white collar fraud, money laundering, and narcotics. Having worked in the public sector. She then went to work in the private sector. Most recently, as an investigator for Nike, her investigative experience includes those of embezzlement conflict of interest, intellectual property, open source intelligence and fraud Kelly's book embezzlement, how to prevent, detect, and investigate peak color crime was published in December, 2020. Thank you for joining me today, Kelly.
Kelly (01:02):
Thank you for having me back as a repeat guest.
Leah (01:05):
I know, for those of you who might be new to the podcast, Kelly was our guest on episode 11 when we were still being a little, uh, too cute with our podcast names. Yours was the internet is forever because we kind of talked about stuff like that. So anyway, um, so if, if our listeners are new to the podcast, check out episode 11 that's that's with Kelly
Kelly (01:28):
And we were in person.
Leah (01:30):
Oh, you're right. I forgot about that.
Kelly (01:32):
Yeah.
Leah (01:33):
That was pre COVID. So I had traveled to Portland for a business trip and gosh, you know, I basically had interviewed friends, like people I knew, not that we're not friends now, obviously, but like then we weren't friends and I had not really interviewed anybody that I didn't know previously to starting the podcast until you, I think you were my first like true guests. Although now everybody's this friend of mine is like what we were, I guess anyway, I'll stop. Um, so anyway, yeah, that was so fun. And especially like being in Portland, that was just lovely. Lovely.
Kelly (02:10):
I know. And I have to say, you guys cannot see Leah right now, but she is wearing pink and she's channeling pink. And like in the last three weeks I had someone show up in another pink shirt on a zoom call who, like she said, I never wear pink. Like what, what was I thinking? I'm like, I channel pink. And then someone else showed up, Jenny Radcliffe on great women in fraud. She showed up with a big pink mug. So I channel pink and Leah is wearing pink.
Leah (02:37):
Yeah I am. And just in case, some of you surely everyone listening knows who you are, Kelly, but just in case Kelly is the champion of, you know, creating awareness about pink collar crime. So just in case you were wondering about that pink reference, um, her book that we're about to talk about is pink. I love it. So yeah. Pink collar crime. Do you want to kind of give a summary of what pink collar crime is for those who might be new?
Kelly (03:06):
Sure. So the actual definition wake up popularized in 1989 by Dr. Kathleen Daly is low to medium level employees, comma, primarily women, comma who steal from the workplace. So I call it garden variety, embezzlement. But if I just said, I'm the embezzlement expert people aren't going to go boring. Whereas if I say I'm the pink collar crime expert, people immediately think it's women committing any type of crime. So they're fascinated. But then I'm like, no, sorry. It's position. Not gender women Excel at embezzlement.
Leah (03:38):
Yeah. In those primarily in your book actually talks about this primarily because of the positions that they're holding. Right. That's what you mean by position, not gender. Yes. You know, I actually, this week, um, I was writing a blog post about, uh, Alicia, our creative producer wanted a blog post this week about like, what do you do if you have a bad bookkeeper? I kind of saw from the title a little for the blog, but you know, that was the idea. And so I did, I, every time I had to reference this generic person, you know, I kept putting her in the spot because in my experience, the majority of these positions are held by women.
Kelly (04:16):
According to the bureau of labor statistics, 90% of all bookkeepers are women. So it's like when people push back and say, you're picking on women, I'm like, it's women are in these positions. So, you know, I want women to excel and, you know, be the CEO, but, um, you know, it's still not happening.
Leah (04:36):
Yeah. Well, your book kind of talks about it once they're there, then it'll just be white collar fraud. Right. Because it's about, well, we'll talk about that in a minute, but it's really about a position and what opportunities somebody has, you know, and the fraud triangle, but, okay. So you have written the book embezzlement how to detect, prevent and investigate pink collar crime. Why did you write this book other than maybe obvious? Cause you're like really passionate about this, but um, yeah, but why, why did you take the time to sit down and write this book for us?
Kelly (05:08):
Well, I had started at like, I don't know, two years ago and I just, uh, and then COVID hit and I speak for a living and train for a living and travel and COVID hit and went. Eh, and so I'm like, what am I going to do? And this was the perfect time to do it. Cause I've had so many people, they hear my stories and they're like, people need to hear this. So I just, during COVID I buckled down and the hired an editor and I decided to do it. And the book, well it's, it will be helpful for investigators and fraud, examiners and auditors, the actual audience. I want to be business owners because I can train my peers. But at the end of the day, we need to protect the business owners who have the money that gets embezzled. So I'm hoping that the business gets it more than just my peers and the title is boring, so boring, but that's because of Amazon because I wanted to do catch me if you can, today's pink collar criminal, like my sort of signature talk, but no one would Google that. So I had to do boring embezzlement, but you know, whatever it works.
Leah (06:19):
Hey, that's right. If you want to get this in the hands of someone who's facing embezzlement or is concerned about embezzlement. Yeah. I mean, you've got to SEO the joys of SEO and searching and, and all of that stuff on Amazon. Um, yeah. So you know what I've done with books like this in the past, which funny story, and I can't even tell you who the expert is because we never even got to connect, but there was this expert that had a book on divorce and like finding hidden assets in divorce. And it was probably even like shorter. Like it's not a big book at all, like very few pages, but I thought, I think this would be so helpful to give this out to clients as they come, you know? And so I contacted this author and an expert and said, Hey, you know, could we get a few copies of your book?
Leah (07:11):
And then also, would you like to be on the podcast? And he said, oh gosh, I'm retiring next month. How many books do you want? I'll send you some books. No, I don't want to be on the podcast. But also I used some books really cheap. So anyway, we have this whole box of books about divorce. So if you're out there and you want a copy of this book, I will give you a book because then when we stopped meeting with people in person. So anyway, that's, but your book, I think is the perfect size book for something like that. If, if an expert or fraud investigator has a client that wants to just learn more, you know, I find a lot of my clients, whenever they've been a victim of embezzlement, they start looking on Amazon for books that kind of help because they, they feel dumb. I mean, those are their words that they say, I don't, I don't think they are, but they feel that way in the moment. And so to read books like this, it's what they're looking for to kind of, okay, am I the only person that has ever made this mistake? And it validates that no, you're not, and this does happen. It is easy. And so I think that's my plug for your book. If you don't and you don't have a book, you need to give away Kelly's book buy Kelly's book and give it away.
Kelly (08:26):
So my daughter calls it a pamphlet, but I will tell you, it is a hundred, it's over a hundred pages. And I have a book that is like one of my favorite books, 1,001 embezzlers that is truly a pamphlet is like 30 pages.
Leah (08:40):
Is not a pamphlet I disagree with.
Kelly (08:42):
I was just saying, it's like, there's a book that's written by an academic in our field. That is like, awesome. You know what? Sorry, no, one's going to finish it except us fraud nerds. So this book is like, I mean, my friends and colleagues have said, it's like an afternoon reading. It's kind of like a summer novel. Just sit outside, have a nice glass of wine, a beer, and you will be finished because you're getting the laugh throughout it and go, oh my God. But the whole idea is to normalize embezzlement. And I just said this on another webinar, I was just on, you know, how people used to not, um, report sexual assaults. They were embarrassed. Well now thankfully we have moved forward and that it does happen, but I want people to understand that it happens to other people. And by spreading the word, I'm always like, you know, the hashtags and everything it's to get people talking about it and realizing it happens to other people just like them and they're not embarrassed and they don't have shame and humiliation.
Leah (09:48):
Yeah. And I think the shame and humiliation of being a victim of embezzlement, um, like it, I mean, it feels so personal and, you know, Tiffany couch talks about just that trust factor being broken and how emotional that is. And then I think also there's this like challenge with this, um, identity of being a good business owner, but then like it's challenging. I thought I was a good business owner, but if I was a good business owner, this wouldn't have happened. And so having that discussion and not being embarrassed because the embarrassment, I think, lends to people, not prosecuting it, just choose to not file the case. Now that does not solve the issue, uh, especially that we're facing in Oklahoma right now because of some, a Supreme court decision. But so there's a massive case backlog. And so white collar cases are just not being worked at the moment, but setting that aside, I mean, we can't fix the backlog problem, but if our clients won't even file the charges because they're embarrassed. I mean, in my opinion, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. They didn't make that decision. Someone took advantage of their situation.
Kelly (10:54):
So this takes me to, and I'm like looking to see if I can find it really quickly. The guy you had who, um, was a victim. Um, and I was like, I listened to that. I've sent it to clients to say, you gotta listen to this. Um, and what stuck with me about his episode and his experience. And I unfortunately hear this from my clients is, they're so disappointed in the justice system. I have a client right now, it's over three years, over three years. And you know, meanwhile, they're paying an attorney to like monitor it and, you know, luckily they can pay an attorney, but can you imagine three years going through this every time you get an email from the attorney or from the cop, I mean, and that's why they hire people like us, because I mean, I joke that I'm the fraud therapist I'm cheaper than the lawyer, but it's like, this is normal. This is not that anything you've done. This is unfortunately, this is how our criminal justice system works. And I just, I remember that one with the guy and I was just like, oh God, it's just, it's so sad at the end because everyone thinks it's CSI, embezzlement. And there's no, our CSI embezzlement. Yeah. No,
Leah (12:18):
There's not. And yeah, if anybody's interested in listening to that, that's episode 20, and it's a, uh, one of our clients who he had a very large over a million dollar embezzlement. Um, and I don't, especially because of the Supreme court stuff that's affecting our local area. Uh, his case is definitely not working. So I know, or I, I know that I'm running the risk of some of my friends working the case, listening to this podcast. But, um, but no, I mean, there's several right now that, or law enforcement will work it up, but then it's going to have to sit and wait because of the backup in court. I mean, you know, and then in addition to COVID, I mean, just all of those issues. And in the meantime, I think, you know, my clients are wanting closure. I think most of my clients are aware that they're probably not going to collect a hundred percent of what was stolen, but they would like to have that closure. And unfortunately, that's really getting delayed right now.
Kelly (13:17):
Yeah, yeah. And that's really hard to like, I mean, I always tell my clients like, you know, I want you to prosecute, but I can understand. I mean, I had a woman recently who reached out to me and her case was a little different. She was ripped off by, I call a serial grifter. Um, the woman kept it low enough that she knew law enforcement wouldn't be involved. So it was kind of a numbers game for her. And then when this woman went to law enforcement and complained, you know, like, Hey, I have this problem. They went to the suspect and the suspect turned around and said, she stiffed me. And so the woman freaked out. She's like, oh my God, I had to hire a lawyer just to, and I'm like, based on everything she told me, I'm like, she is a serial grifter and she keeps it below a certain amount.
Kelly (14:06):
And she scares you because she knows how to work the system. Yeah. So otherwise I tell them to like go through this system, but once in a while, I can understand why they don't. There are, there are reasons why not to. I had a, this is funny. I had a guy who, um, he of course said, he'd never be embezzled when he met me. He said, I'll never be embezzled, optimism bias. And it's yeah. Famous last words and sure enough, it happens. And when it happened, he was really, really upset. And he wanted this guy to be on the front page of the local newspaper, you know, stole money, blah blah. And I said, dude, you gotta slow down here. You are the public person. And this is going to look badly on you. I said, we will put it through the systems, but we're going to put it through the system in a much quieter way because he had investors and they would have said, what is this guy doing? That he can allow this amount of money to be lost. And, and he was really thankful about that because that's what we can coach our clients with, or, you know, consult with them about how the system works and how best to do it. So they get the best, not only like, sort of ending to it, but it doesn't wreck them anyway else like their personal reputation or, yeah. So,
Leah (15:31):
Yeah, there's just so many, you know, I do think that clients want this like 1, 2, 3 step process, uh, which when it comes to walking that out, there's just so many things that no one controls, you know, we can't control what the subject does. How about whenever, uh, somebody steals from a business and then they go and they know that they've been caught. And so then they go and they file a lawsuit for wrongful termination or something like that. I mean, that's something that clients can't control. So that part is definitely messy. I think the easiest part in an investment investigation is the investigation. You know, like what you're going to do afterwards is always, uh, well, yes, maybe, but you know, or the
Kelly (16:20):
Lawyers famous last words. It depends.
Leah (16:23):
Yeah. There you go. I was looking for, so, so yeah. So your book covers pink collar crime. You talk about the fraud triangle explaining that. Um, I like the, I mean you break down all three sides, but especially the opportunity piece, because I think, you know, I, I used to speak with a lady, uh, who was a chief internal auditor, chief audit executive. There we go. And she presented one day and she said, you know, opportunity is the only thing that we can actually control within our organizations. So of this nationalization. And we can't control the pressure. And I don't even think we can a hundred percent control the opportunity, but we can definitely manage the risk if we can manage
Kelly (17:13):
That side of the triangle one time, you know, I kind of went along with the, you know, buttoned down the opportunity, but I use your example all the time about the guy who said, oh, don't pay attention to my admin. She's too dumb to steal from me. Okay. That's the rationalization part. Like they'll steal that woman stole from him and she's like, okay, well he's a total jerk. So I deserve it now. And I tell my clients I'm like tone at the top. I don't care what your like is a business owner. I'm just telling you how your employees may take it. So I don't care if you're a jerk 1 0 1, like doesn't bother me. You know, you pay my bill, but when you're jerk one-on-one to your employees, it's going to open that rationalization. So, yeah.
Leah (17:59):
You're right. You're right. Tone at the top does affect the rationalization side for sure. And, and I say, I tell people this all the time too, and I think we've talked about it before that I don't think we can prevent a hundred percent of financial or occupational fraud. Um, I don't think we can prevent it. It's about stock. It's about stopping it, identifying it, detecting it quickly because the longer the fraud scheme runs the larger your loss, the more devastating to your business. You know, if you can catch it after that one, duplicate payroll, you're going to be alive, but you're still going to be mad, right? You still got to more likely fire the person or whatever. You gotta go through that process, but that's a lot easier than $7 million later.
Kelly (18:43):
Well, and like, I don't know if you notice that the front of my chapters, I do these little quotes and one of the quotes is, and Ashley, I just flipped to it from Joe Wells. Founder of ACFE fraud is not an accounting problem. It's a social phenomenon. And my whole career I say is all a bit about money. Like, you know, early twenties before I became in law enforcement, I was a stock broker and a bond trader. And it was about how people spent or saved and invested money and then become law enforcement to how people steal money. And then like this part of the thing it's like, I don't want to say money is the root of all evil because lots of people with lots of money can do some really amazing things. But money has always the short term solution to a longer term problem. And people naturally go to the short-term solution. The long-term solution is live within your means. The short term is, you know, I'll just steal a thousand bucks and pay off my visa bill this month. Yep. So money is the root of like or money, not the root. My whole career is about money and people's relationship to it.
Leah (19:53):
We'll be right back back.
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Leah (21:41):
Welcome back to my interview with Kelly Paxton, that kind of reminds me of this case. I had where there was a guy that was, he stole between six and $800,000 from his employer. And he had like a couple dollars in his checking account when we interviewed him. And when we talked to him about like, where did all this money go? He said, well, I always, I didn't get to go to college. And I told my kids that they would get to go to college. And so I didn't, I was having a hard time living up to that promise. And so I found an opportunity and I decided to do this. And I remember sitting there and I don't remember if I said it or not, cause it's been awhile, but I just remember thinking, well, you could have taken out a loan and then, you know, but in that moment he felt like the only option he had was to steal, like, that's what he decided.
Leah (22:34):
So I like you're in that moment. The short-term decision is this is how I'm going to leave this, but now he's lost his job. You know, taking out a loan, he'd still have his job, take it, you know, getting help from friends, maybe like what my sisters and I had to do part of our school was on us. You know? I mean just having to do it that way. So anyway, undue pressure on himself, for sure. And, and choosing to relieve that pressure in a way that was a short-term fix, but a long-term detriment really.
Kelly (23:06):
Yeah. And so many people just go to money because it is the thing. And that's the other thing is like, um, you know, money is replaceable is a business or you can always sell more. You can, whatever you do, you can do. But the, the, the breach of trust, the, um, that I think you did therapy. I'm going to say it. Like I have one guy call me up. I don't know how he found me. And he's just like two years after the fact he's a multi-millionaire and he's just like, I can't make a decision to save my soul. And I said, you need a therapist, like a professional therapist, because it was his ex-wife who stole from him. And then in addition to it, you know, he had to actually, you know, give her a settlement. And so he felt that he couldn't make a good decision because if he couldn't pick the right wife who then steals from them and I'm like, yeah.
Kelly (24:00):
And I say to my clients, I'm like, I'll be your therapist, but you need a real therapist. And actually, I, um, I have a client who it's on three years now, when she, she wrote a blog post of mine and she just started sobbing because it was about, you need a therapist. And she had been saying to her husband this whole time, I need a therapist. I need a therapist. This is driving me crazy. It's taking too much time. And she saw the post and she, it validated her and she went and she did get therapy. So if you are a victim of embezzlement, I highly recommend it.
Leah (24:35):
Oh yeah, for sure. I say that if you investigate a lot of this stuff, you probably need therapy. Speaking from experience. I, since I did start working forensics, you know, so young, there was just so much that I didn't know how to handle. And there was a case I was working and I was involved in this case for about 18 months and about 15 months in, uh, the guy that we had a very adversarial relationship because he had to work with me. It was not his choice and, uh, like court ordered. And, um, he died of an accidental overdose. And just dealing with that, getting that phone call that morning. And, you know, I, I knew about his family. I knew about his wife, his kids, all of that. And not to mention the entire time I had worked with him, it was adversarial. Like we were always at odds.
Leah (25:30):
And that just that's when I, that was kind of the case where I was like, man, I am carrying too many of these cases around with me now. Like I need to be able to leave them at the office. And I didn't quite know how to do that. So I don't know how we got on the therapy train here, but like, I, I'm a big supporter of that. That's the only way I am still in this business because being able to separate that responsibility, like what is my role as an investigator, as a business owner in these relationships. And, you know, unfortunately, even though we're, we're dealing either with victims or subjects or whatever the role is, it's still their problem. It can't become mine.
Kelly (26:07):
Well, it, for me, the part is part is like charging because they're like, they've been ripped off mind you I've, I've totally backed off of that because I'm like, you have a lawyer, if you can afford a lawyer. Well, and I have to work through a lawyer. I'm like, no, but never have a problem charging. Like, but when I sit there and I see $500,000 has been walked out the door, I, I kind of feel bad and I've had to get away from that. That is one thing it's like, you know what, it's not my fault. And I am a professional and sorry, this is my, I don't get out of bed for it. Right. Like this is our therapist,
Leah (26:48):
Right. This is like, this is our, you know, if we were a manufacturer, this would be our widget that we're manufacturing. I mean, it's our knowledge, our skill, our experience. And so, yeah, I get it. And one of the ways that we've started just this year, um, we, well, I volunteered with law enforcement before to help them with cases. But this year we decided that we weren't going to take any pro bono cases unless they came from law enforcement. And so that's been really helpful just to have that like defining line. So if someone calls and says, you know, I can't afford this or whatever, then it's like, I'm sorry, we don't take any pro bono cases, but we will take them from law enforcement. If law enforcement will work your case and refer it to us. That's great. But you know, that way, um, just cause you end up chasing more on those pro bono cases when they haven't been vetted and uh, when there's all that emotion involved. So we've started doing that with law enforcement.
Kelly (27:45):
So, you know, there's a thing about that. So this is the thing. This is, cause you know, I'm a fraud I'm in behavioral science nerd is you say you have a rule and people will not ask you to break the rule. If you say, um, we only take, uh, we only take cases from law enforcement. They'll say, well, can't you just this one time. But if you say I have a rule that I only take six pro bono cases a year and we're over, they won't actually people won't ask you to break a rule. So you're going to learn something here. You're going to say, I have a rule that I only take pro bono cases. And people just naturally want to ask you to break that rule. So yeah.
Leah (28:27):
So true. We haven't had anybody ask us. So, and especially it would be, I think they normally say it's our policy that we only take.
Kelly (28:35):
Yeah, people break policies, they don't break rules rules.
Leah (28:39):
But they still have to challenge the policy. Well, I mean, if they were talking to me, but they're not usually talking to me, so no, cause I can change the policy, my staff can't but anyway, okay. So let's talk about the ACFE conference. Both of us were invited to speak this year. Congratulations. So exciting.
Kelly (29:02):
I know. Like it's a huge honor to be asked and this is the second time I've done it, but it's just a huge honor because it's, it's the Olympics of fraud.
Leah (29:11):
Well anti-fraud yeah. Um, so tell us about your presentation. I understand that it's a new one
Kelly (29:19):
Before your brand, as a CFE. And I, I just so believe in this topic, um, which is funny because I hate the word brand. I just hate it. I came from, I came from a place where it's your brand. Everything is all about your brand. And um, but they used it I'd say in an evil way. Whereas as fraud professionals, as investigators, you have to have a personal brand because I believe at some point we will find something out or we will stick our foot in something that ends up making us disposable. And if you don't have that brand, you're going to have a hard time getting your next gig. So I truly believe it. I also believe it really helps the company. And I just saw a podcast where a brand professional says it's 10 times more valuable to the company. So when I left my brand company, I already had a brand of the pink collar crime person.
Kelly (30:17):
And I was able to, you know, do it. There are people in our industry that have a brand, Cynthia Hetherington is the [inaudible] queen. She has a small cyst. You know, you are the data sleuth like, and you will always be that I pushed back about against pink for a long time, just because I was like, you know, but it stuck. And, um, I think it's really, really important, even if you, I just did, I did a survey on LinkedIn months ago for this presentation because you have to get your slides put in, in advance. And you know what the majority of people said, they didn't need a brand because they work for a corporation. And I just didn't know what in our world, in our economy, you don't work for a corporation for 40 years and get a gold watch. So, um, and like I have kids that are young adults that, you know, graduated from college and they, they don't five years.
Kelly (31:17):
That would be a long time for them to work anywhere. And so you have to have that brand that people come to you for. I just, I really believe in it and I've had fun with it. I, you know, I show up in events in pink now, like for the longest time I wouldn't wear pink. Now I own, I own the pink fully own it, but I think it's really important for professionals to be known for who you are and what you stand for, even if you work for the U S government or a fortune 50.
Leah (31:46):
Yeah, I agree. Um, I think that's really, I think that's really powerful because it's, it's not, you know, I think brand brands are associated with like, oh, I have to be in business for myself, but it's really like just, I mean, you worded it perfectly like who you are and what you bring to the table, because even if you work for a large company, like when I, um, actually when I interned with the FBI from the moment I sent this very strategic application, very strategic, I won't go into it now, but I sent this very strategic application because they only chose one intern per field office in Oklahoma. That meant one internal the entire state. So I wanted it to be really strategic. I don't know if that's actually like what worked for me, but when I, before I even arrived, my intern coordinator called me and said, would you, like, I know you're an accounting major.
Leah (32:37):
Would you like to work in like the side of this office? Or would you like to like work on real FBI stuff? Because he could tell from this branding of this packet, I think I might be putting words in his mouth. So if he's listening, I'm sorry, but like it, but from this brand, he didn't even know me, but he knew from this packet, I had prepared that I, I was all in, like I wanted to be an FBI agent. And so I got to do some of the coolest things that summer that probably my other interns still don't even know about, but I got to do such cool things. And so that became like, when somebody knew, oh, we're going to go look at the, um, command center for the all-star game in Pittsburgh that year they took me because I was, I was all in, on being part of the FBI. And so I agree. I mean, and I wasn't creating some logo and icon or anything like that. And I don't even think it has to be catchy. It's just, what are you known for and own it.
Kelly (33:38):
And the funny thing is where I worked before, um, she said my brand was not good because I was too transparent and blunt. And I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. Honesty is, it's not good. Like, I mean, honestly, and then she had a typo in it. So I really kinda went ape on that too. Like I was like really being honest and transparent is not good. Like, sorry, I'm an investigator. I deal in facts.
Leah (34:06):
That's right. And I think it's just a way to show your personality. And yeah, we, we like to interact with people where we know what we're going to get essentially out of that, or have an idea of what we're going to get out of that relationship. And so clients who are going to call you are probably very different than the clients who are going to call me. Cause we're two very different people on the way that we approach cases are very different. And it's funny that you rejected pink for a while. Cause I also rejected one, the very first person who wrote my bio that like I paid to write, my bio said that I was a modern day Sherlock Holmes. And I thought that was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard. And I didn't want to be identified that way. But then I had another PR consultant several years later, I said, can we get rid of that? And she said, but Leah at works, people really like that about you. And so I think that about your pink as well. And then what's funny is that once I started owning it, then we were able to more clearly define a brand. Like just the part that, oh, that seems so cheesy. But now, I mean, that's really the fundamental piece to being a data sleuth and everything else we do.
Kelly (35:09):
And I just think the world has changed that we just don't identify by our company anymore. We identified by ourselves and our skills. And the other thing is our connections. So like, I mean, I love to connect people in the fraud world. Like, I mean, I just connected a woman. Well, I got connected from a woman from DC to a woman over in Europe. And then I connected the woman in Europe back with a woman here. And it's like, that gives me such joy. So like, I mean, I'm known as pink, but I'm also known as like Kelly just connects. Like I love to do it. And if you, if you aren't shining, like in a certain way, I won't know how to connect with you. Cause I won't know what your genius is. So show me on LinkedIn or on Twitter or somewhere what your genius is. And it's going to rise above the crowd. Like I have certain people that I do referrals to because I'm sure there's other people out there that are just as good. I don't know because I don't see them.
Leah (36:10):
Right. Yeah. It's really important. Really important. Gosh, we could stay on that for a while too. So that sounds like a great presentation. Um, and then just briefly, I, cause I've never asked you about this. How did you get into the speaking world? And if somebody's listening is interested in doing this type of stuff, like how did you, how did you start speaking everywhere?
Kelly (36:31):
So, um, I got asked by calling to do a presentation like in 2009. And honestly my knees shook and it was on background investigations. It wasn't my passion, but I am a member of the national speakers association. And actually I was the president elect for the state of Oregon. Um, but some stuff happened personally and I couldn't take the time to be able to do it. I love the NSA national speakers association because it's it Toastmasters has its place for your platform skills, your pauses, but national speakers association is about the business of speaking. So my living is primarily me speaking and training and I wouldn't have known about engagement letters or social media. Um, I love the speaking and it's funny because my mom said to me, you know, may she rest in peace? You speak like people pay you to speak. And I'm like, yes, mom. And they pay me well, she's like, I would've never thought that as a child, you were in the corner, like reading a book, there is something from speaking that is like, it's just, I love it. And I love it because the topic, like if you asked me to speak on backgrounds, I'd go boring again. But when you get that passion and you can share it with other people do it. And I would say, if you have a national speakers association chapter go to them, they, they have taught me so much, so, so much.
Leah (37:58):
Yeah. That's great advice, really, really great advice. And I think of the people who work in different corporations who were looking at different types of investigations that we don't necessarily see as an external consultant. And I think there's a lot of value there. And so if any of our listeners enjoy speaking and if your company will let you, you know, kind of venture out in those areas, I think it's great. And that's also why they should attend your session because you're going to be talking about, um, building that brand and you might as well start and see if you can get some speaking gigs. I started off speaking in front of college students. That's what I did because I didn't trust. And so I, anytime, you know, I, the, my Alma mater would ask me to come back and speak. I really hated it, but I would do it every time. And then that's kind of how I built my confidence. So.
Kelly (38:48):
Well, I just, a woman called me up and she's working for just say a professional services firm. And, um, you know, that work's a little challenging right now. And they're saying they want her to be a Rainmaker and to cold call clients. And she's like, I'm terrible at that. And I said, no, no, no, let's stop here. Okay. You're terrible at it. I totally get that. You know what? You need to be known as the subject matter expert in her little niche. And she has a niche and she's like, well, how can I do that? I said, you're going to put a webinar on for your company. You're going to put a webinar on for your company's clients. By the end of our call, she was like, she was so excited because she goes, I don't have to cold call my clients and beg for gigs. She's like, I can put out like a white paper. I can, you know, do a webinar. She was thrilled because she thought her idea of networking was her boss basically said cold call. And I'm like, you don't have to do it that way. Let's. And so I'm looking forward to seeing how she progresses because she, by the end of the call, she was just, she was thrilled.
Leah (39:51):
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. There are so many creative ways to meet and get to know people and, you know, buy through a podcast. I mean, gosh, I've met so many, so many great people, yourself, people across the world. Um, we're working on something super fun that I can't announce yet, but I am getting to work with consultants in London on, it's so much fun. I can't wait to talk about that project, but, um, it's not case related, but you know, it's things we investigators love. So I'm excited about that, but, but like having a podcast and meeting people and reaching out and just networking in this way has just made me so much more confident that, oh, I've got this cool project. I'm going to email this person that I had on the podcast. And then they say, I love this idea. I'm going to talk to somebody else. So it's really a confidence booster. So webinars white papers. It's just great in technology and, and, and building confidence in using the tools.
Kelly (40:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
Leah (40:51):
Well, Kelly, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for joining me again. If you haven't yet signed up for the ACFE conference, please do so and sign up for Kelly's session. Do you know your son? Oh yeah. And mine too. I think mine is nine B. I'm going to be walking people through. It's an interactive presentation where we've deconstructed the case of the case of the cashflow fiasco game and we deconstructed it and we're going to all work it together. So it's going to be an interactive presentation. I'm super pumped. So thank you for giving me that spot for my little plug, but yeah. Make sure you sign up for Kelly's presentation and my session as well. And thank you so much, Kelly.
Kelly (41:28):
Thank you. I cannot wait to be back for the third appearance.
Leah (41:31):
Oh yeah. I know. We're going have to start like giving badges. Right. All right. Talk to you soon, Kelly.
Outro (41:37):
Thank you. Thank you for listening to the investigation game. For more information on any of the topics brought up on this show, visit Workman forensics.com. If you enjoyed our show, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. You can also connect with us on any social media platform by searching the Workman forensics. If you have any questions or topic ideas, please email us@podcastatworkmanforensics.com. Thank you.